Gender, Length, Discrimination Topic

Hello, my friends. Welcome back to the Modern Hairstylist Podcast. I posted something on the Instagram, uh, not too long ago, and it... Isn't it...

I wouldn't call it viral. It didn't go viral. How many, how many... Let me see, let me see really quickly.

Okay, it got 11,000 views. It got attention. It got attention. It got 11,000 views.

It got 57 comments. Um, and a lot of... There was just, like, some discourse around it, okay? And so we wanted to talk about it in a podcast format so we could really, like, dive deeper into it.

And you know, the tea is, is that, like, the whole... A big lesson that I learned from this, and actually validated, was that short form content addressing larger ideas and conversations is very inflammatory and can be taken very the wrong way. And that words and the way that you describe things and you share things very much matter, and nuance matters a lot, especially when it comes to, like, business advice on social media or anything like that. Because you could read one statement of advice, and that could be taken in a million different directions, and there could be a million questions, and that could be applied to you in a million different ways.

And the way that we posted this, I would say, is quite without nuance. However, I think that the statement stands by itself, and I said what I said. So go ahead, Jodi. Mm-hmm.

Well, and I think... I'm just gonna say, like, in, in defense of this, like, I do think that there was enough nuance that, you know, the... Some of the comments were a little unfounded, I would say. Yeah, I agree.

But it's funny, 'cause it definitely proved the point. Right. And, like, no matter how... You know, it also kind of, like, goes back to the thing that no matter how well-intentioned something is, if you take a strong stance on anything or you have a strong opinion on anything, there's gonna be people that it pisses off.

Right. So the post was, "Charging based on gender, hair density, or length is by definition discriminatory. Hairstylists charging based on who someone is is not okay." And then the next slide is, "Charging by time, labor, and product, that makes sense.

Charge for the work you are doing, not who your client is." And I really like that statement personally. Like, I really like, "Charge for the work you're doing- Mm-hmm ... not who the client is," because that just makes, it just makes sense.

Yeah. And oftentimes actually ends up making you more money, it allows you to communicate things better, and it's just more even and scalable across the board. Right. So the main sentiment...

Okay, so let me tell you where this idea came from. So I, from the beginning of time, the, the genderless pricing conversation has been important to me. I, I, I, of course. However, I hate the solution of charging for length.

I think it is comp- it completely does not make sense. It is like... And by the way, this is from a... This is not...

This is from both perspectives. A, from a business consulting perspective, where it's like, I want you to be profitable for your time and, like, the services that you're doing, but then simultaneously a moral perspective as well too. And there are different beliefs that I have for both of those things that sometimes contradict each other, but the majority of the, the time, like especially with this topic, charging by length creates so many cons, okay? It just does not make sense, and let me tell you why.

A pixie cut could fucking take you longer to do and take you way more labor and training to do than a zero degree haircut taking an inch off of long hair. Yeah, 100%. And slash or- I think that's like the majority of people. Well, I'm thinking of, like, cutting, like, a bob.

Like, that was huge when I was behind the chair, and that took me literally twice as long as, like, a long layered haircut. Now, like, same. I guess the difference could be the styling, okay? But, like, this...

There's no way... Okay, anyways, again, nuance, right? This could be different for everybody, right? It's not a good indicator of the time, essentially.

It's not. It's not a good indicator of the time, and it just, like... It's like, why aren't we just charging for how long this thing is taking you, right? Like, why...

And not even, like, from a... I always talk about how, like, there's a way that we price things, but then there's a way that we present the pricing. I never recommend that we present the pricing with the time per se. I most of the time am trying to evaluate our pricing and what the pricing should be based upon what you're earning per hour to make it so you are earning the most even amount possible per hour across all of your services.

So that way, no matter what you're doing, you're making a predictable amount of money at a minimum. Because if a haircut is making you a lot less money per hour, then every second taken up by a haircut is you- you're losing money because of the opportunity cost of you otherwise being able to fit in a different service into that time. And so similar situation, if you are charging by length, and let's say that a, let's say that a longer haircut you're charging $100 for, but you're booking 30 minutes for or something like that. And then your pixie cut you're booking, you're, you're charging $50 for, but you're actually booking an hour for it, that is wildly different in how much money you're making.

Totally. So the tea is, is that like I get it. What the person... What is on somebody's body is absolutely going to change your timing.

Like 100%, I get it. But when we are communicating our pricing to the client, and when we're putting service menus out there on online booking, on our websites, it's not about extra thick hair, it's about the amount of time that it may take you to do so, right? So that's what I'm trying to get at here. And also, I'm just gonna take it even a step further.

This is just like my personal tea. I genuinely very rarely have had ever to charge somebody extra because of them having a higher density of hair, because I never felt like it was that deep. I- my base pricing is un- is, is, is priced well enough and I've built enough demand to be able to take on these small different little losses. Mm.

So for example, like I have like a base amount of product including in my, included in my color, right? If I go a tiny bit over that, am I all of a sudden charging this person a whole extra bowl? No. Mm.

If I, if it takes me 15 to 30 minutes extra to do this one client, but they're an amazing client and they refer me people and I love them and I enjoy them, am I gonna penalize them for what they're born with? I don't think it's worth it. Yeah. I, I really don't, and I'm priced so well and my business is set up very well to not have to worry about that stuff.

And honestly, if you're in a space in which that stuff is so bothersome to you, then normally it's because you actually can't afford to nickel and dime all this shit, right? Because you're still building demand. You are still building a profitable business. So like for you, things, this, these pennies feel scarce, right?

But by you nickel and diming, by these different things, you are decreasing your likelihood of staying booked and busy and actually growing your business because it's affecting how clients are perceiving your book and h- if they wanna work with you or not, and your price. Yeah. No, that's so true. I, it's m- jogging my memory back to the first, like the first salon owner that I worked for that I really respected, and I still like have immense...

Like every salon owner I worked for as an employee, this person I'm like i- is like the gold standard. Um, and it's interesting 'cause I remember like, you know, hearing always like, "Oh, always charge extra for length, always charge extra," like when I got into the beauty industry. And then I went and worked at this salon, and we were just kinda like going through like the charging structure and all of that, and I was like, "Okay, like do you charge more for, you know, X, Y, and Z?" And he's like, "No."

He's like, "Because here's the thing, I'm not gonna go in and discount someone that has less hair and fine hair, so therefore, why am I gonna penalize someone for having thicker hair?" And I was like- Exactly ... I'd never heard it said like that before, but I think it makes so much sense. And that was like 20 years ago, and it, I think it still holds, for sure.

Yeah. I, and I love that you brought that up, 'cause I think that was in some of the comments too. So then it's like, okay, then what? Do we discount these other people if we're pricing per time?

And I'm like, no. Like, it's just the price. Like this is just the price and it is what it is. Now, here's where, again, like my caveat comes into play.

It's like maybe this is a per, per person decision at the end of the day sometimes. Um, but like after 30 minutes, right, like above 30 minutes- Mm-hmm ... or above like a significant amount of product usage, okay, maybe, right? And then you have the conversation with the client one-to-one.

But like from a base perspective, like from a service menu perspective, like on your website, in your booking, all that stuff, like just, it just does not land well, I think. And it honestly actually holds you back when it comes to your profitability in, in, in relation to your time. Yeah. And I mean, I, this is a conversation one step above, uh, genderless pricing, so I mean, I don't need to explain to y'all why that is even a thing, I don't think.

Like, I mean, I'll... For those of you who are interested in, in that conversation, I'll just shoot it to you like quickly. Like for example, men versus women, like why is a woman is paying more for a haircut that takes you more time or the same amount of time as a man, right? Right.

So then like genderless pricing completely takes care of that for you. Um, and then also, why are you earning less per hour on a dude, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Um, versus where you could have, uh, anybody in the chair where you're spending the same amount of time and making a lot more money. So from a profit perspective, it makes a lot more sense for you to be genderless, honestly. Um, so yeah, that's why you should be genderless. I don't know that...

I, I think that most people at this point I, I hope understand that conversation. Yeah. I mean, I think it all comes back to the same stuff, right? It's like I think a lot of these conversations, like when you actually analyze it, it makes sense.

You know what I mean? Like, and, and I think that's where it's interesting is like I don't know anyone that would argue with any good rational argument. Like, I cannot think of one for charging a man less than a woman- Yeah ... for the exact same thing, right?

Like, I genuinely cannot think of anything. Yeah. Um, but it's almost like, well, this is how it's always been done, and so it's like that's the argument, right? So I feel like when you, when you assess this, and that's why, you know, even with things like this post, it's good that these conversations start happening, and it really does highlight to your earlier point, I think that there's so much scarcity in the beauty industry because so many people are still operating on such thin margins.

Right. And costs have increased so much, you know, in the past few years, and I think a lot of people still maybe haven't caught up. So maybe it is that deeper issue of like making sure that your pricing is actually profitable, and then this kind of stuff. 'Cause when I was reading the comments I was like, okay, there's clearly a lot of people who are triggered here.

Like, like majorly by this, you know, verbiage, right? But it's like you, like it says by definition, and by definition charging someone differently for who they are is discriminatory. Right. Um, uh, I agree with you and the, I, I, I think that the scarcity definitely is a thing.

I mean, we all... I mean, I went to the beauty store the other day, and I, well, I just had to switch brands because my brand pulled out of distributors and I'm not ordering- Mm-hmm ... something for a $40 shipping fee. Like, I'm not j- Right ...

I'm just not fucking doing that. So, because I'm not loading up my salon like I used to. You know what I mean? Yeah.

So I, so I went to the beauty s- supply store the other day in person. I walked in and I said, "Are these fucking consumer prices?" Right? Like, what the...

So trust but believe sister friend, like, I get it. Like, shit is- Mm-hmm ... fucking expensive, right? But, like, the tea is, is, like, in any traditional job, okay?

Mm-hmm. Let's say any college-educated job, okay? You are not making shit for like many, the many first years of your career, okay? Mm-hmm.

Like, you are making... You are just scraping by, right? And I think, like, the get rich quick of social media, like, aura of that all and influence of that all has really made us, like, feel as if, like, we should be profitable right now. I'll even say, like, educators talking about, like, how much are you making on your profit?

Like, or, I'm sorry, on your product cost and all that stuff. It's like it makes us not think about the fact that, like, we are here where we are right now and some investment is sometimes important, and you're n- just not there yet to be- Right ... charging a shit ton more money- Right ... because of your expenses.

Like, you're just not, and that's where I will say, and I don't think it's a valid argument, but this is what the m- biggest argument is for the genderless pricing, is it's considering your current circumstance. That's what holds people back. So it's like outside of the current circumstance, the, the, like you said, there's no argument. Like, it's like there's just no arguing your way around it.

It just is what it is. It's, like, I mean, like, it could be even, again, more labor- Yeah ... than when you work on a woman, you know? It just- Yeah ...

it's all... I mean, a wom- a man could have the same fucking hair as a woman. Like, like it's like- Yeah, yeah. 100%.

So there's no argument about it, but when somebody, from a moral perspective, when somebody's considering the change for their business, the biggest objection that will come up is the current circumstance. Mm-hmm. And so the current circumstance is I have these men paying 50% less- Right ... than a woman right now.

Right. And so, and, and let's say that 25% of the clientele is men. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.

So here's what I'm not saying. I'm not saying that all of the sudden, and this is again where the nuance becomes so important, you, y- I'm not saying that all the sudden, and this is oftentimes what most people do, we shouldn't just all the sudden make the pri- the men's price the women's price. Like, it shouldn't just be this massive crazy rip the Band-Aid off. It should first be a, okay, maybe we change the language of this, first and foremost.

It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, we're just gonna have a haircut, and then we have a different type of haircut for the different type of work that you're doing. And then we start to balance out the pricing over time, whether that be a, a two price increases or three if it really has to be. It's not just a, like, 0 to 100 situation. So that's my take.

Okay. Can I ask you a clarifier based on a lot of the comments that were in there? Yeah. Okay.

So let's give an example here. With the haircut, we'll keep kind of going on that, 'cause I think this goes far beyond haircuts. Like, it goes into- Of course ... like, everything else.

But, um, with the fact that, like, a lot of people think, "Okay, then let me do a short haircut and a long haircut," so we've already kind of like covered why that's not a good idea. Right. So what is your recommendation in terms of having those different, like, tiers or, like, variations on a service like that? Yeah.

A lot of our people in our, in our, uh, uh, in my programs, like, they've come up with their own solutions for it, and they've all gotten kind of creative, and it really, again, depends on the type of work they're doing and the type of... It really comes back to, like, does it n- are you booking the same amount of time for this situation? Yeah. Because if you're booking the same amount of time, this just becomes very easy.

It's just haircut, right? Right. If there's a different type of timing that goes into this, that's when we get to say, uh, express cut versus- Right ... full cut or something like that.

Got it. Got it. So we just give it some sort of, like, name that differentiates it- Mm-hmm ... and that it's referring to the time of what's going on- Right ...

versus the actual person, again, that's in the chair. Right. Um, uh, uh, some people will charge, uh, like, differently for... And this is kind of a different conversation, but, like, like, some people will charge differently for, like, a curly cut versus a- Mm-hmm ...

um, a, a straight hair haircut. Right. If it's booked for the same amount of time, I think that's ridiculous. I think that's- Mm ...

fucking stupid, and that's- Yeah ... like, genuinely discriminatory. Like that is, like, actually discriminatory. And, like, people will, people will charge more for the curly cut because of, like, all the training that they've gotten for, like, for like, being able to do it.

So, like, they have these methods and all these certifications and shit like that. And, like, okay, then you should be known for these cuts. That should be your niche. You should be a curly hair cut specialist, and then the price of a haircut should just be the curly cut price if there's no difference in time.

Mm-hmm. If there is difference in time, then that's normally comes with the styling a lot of the time. Yeah, for sure. That's what I see with my people.

The education, yeah. Yes. Um, and so we remo- so then, so then therefore it's a different amount of time. It's a different type of style, right?

So then therefore you're defining I'm doing a curly hair style, right? Right. With this haircut, and then therefore it's fairly differentiated. And yes- Right ...

that technically does have to do with, like, what the person, who the person is- Right ... but it's also the technique that you're doing. Like, I am doing- Right ... a curly hair technique.

So it's about the work that you're doing, not what, who the person is at the end of the day. Exactly, 'cause someone with curly, like yeah, that makes sense. 'Cause as like technically someone who did have curl but maybe didn't wear it in that way, maybe wore it differently, could book in for your other haircut service. They just would not get all of the- Exactly ...

the styling and all of those things. And this goes back to everything that happened in the comments, which is like, we are doing this because of who the person is. I'm like, that's great and dandy, but you should be charging for what you're doing. Yes.

Not who the person is. Like, on the line item, like by definition, again, like from a very literal and tangible sense- Yeah ... on the line item, on the receipt- Yeah ... on the service menu, on the online booking, in the way that you even describe it- Mm-hmm ...

it should not be about the, the who you're doing, it should be the work that you're doing. Well, you know, when you're saying that, you know what I'm picturing? I'm literally picturing like a receipt that's like, haircut price, add on for being a woman. Like, and then that's like the line item, right?

And it's like, would you ever do that? Right. And you know, the amount of like, the amount of people who have gone into salons who have like really thick hair, who are felt bastardized for having thick hair- ... and i- of course curly hair, and that is a much deeper and bigger and- Yeah ...

other conversation. It, so it's like, it's like you're only furthermore like di- like digging the knife in, right? And of course, like somebody in the comments pointed this out, that like if somebody who may have like a lot of thick hair, they may know that it's gonna take this person a lot longer. And they may be fully okay with the fact that they might have to pay a little bit more because of that.

Yeah. But why do we have to di- dig the knife in deeper by putting that on the line item, you know? You know, it could be as simple as like additional service time. Exactly.

And that's exactly what I recommend, is I- Yeah. I recommend like a, a service variation, and it's the service plus extra time. Yeah. And still don't love, I still would rather take away the time part of it, out of it.

Yeah. I can't come up with a replacement for it, but yes, it's a universal concept that everybody- Okay ... can understand, and it's not about, again, the person, it's about your situation that you're charging for. It's about the labor that you're doing.

So yeah, that's what I normally recommend is, is, is, is we have our base services. We wanna make sure that on average we have it the least amount of services possible- Mm-hmm ... and the most of our bases covered- Right ... with the least amount of services possible.

And then a variation of each of those services that has an extra time option. The extra time option has a extra allotted amount of time and allotted amount of product, and if those are exceeded, then they move up to the next service level- Mm-hmm ... which is normally- Right ... a higher price.

Right. So it's like this is no longer... And I'm talk- and this is like my packaging philosophy and things like that. Mm-hmm.

Like, if they exceed those allotted amount of things, then there's normally a higher package- Right ... that makes more sense for the situ- the transformation that you're doing, or makes more sense, or is more in align with the amount of time and product that you're using. Mm-hmm. And again, like it kinda comes back full circle to the point, to the fact that like the way that you say things matters.

Yes. The way that, you know, the way that this post was phrased is the reason that there was so much, you know, attention and so many people taking things, you know, in, like having their different opinions, having their different like, um... What's the word I'm looking for? Interpretations of what you were trying to say, right?

Yeah. So it's like at the end of the day, that, it, the comments on that post prove the point of the post that the way that you say things is super important. And that's why, you know, even when, I know maybe for some people it's like, "Okay, this sounds, like, kinda arbitrary." It's like, okay, if it's for the same thing, what's the difference?

The difference is how it makes your clients feel, how it is perceived by the people who are sitting in your chair who you are serving. Period. Thank you so much for saying that. You could not have said that more beautifully, and I think that's a great way to round out the episode.

Thank you. So thank you guys so much for tuning into the Modern Hairstylist Podcast. Hopefully this was enlightening for you, my friend. Peace out, Girl Scout.

Bye-bye.

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