Speaking Grief - How to Emotionally Support Clients

Hello, friend. Welcome back to the Modern Hairstylist Podcast. I am so excited to have you back, and I'm extra excited because this month is Mental Health Awareness Month. And us as service providers and beauty professionals in general, we deal with a whole slew of mental health situations, right?

Like, whether it be our clients, whether it be us, whether it be our families. Like, we deal with all the mental health in all the different ways, and that's exactly why this entire month of May I'm going to be releasing to you four episodes all about mental health, okay? And to kick it off, I have some of my favorite freaking people coming in, and the coolest freaking program to be talking about supporting people through grief. This program is super special to me for so many different reasons, and specifically, for you guys as service providers, I believe it to be really important.

As service providers, we oftentimes, you know, end up being therapists, right? Especially as hairstylists, beauty professionals, people who touch people, people who, um, we see people very often throughout their entire lives, through all their different life events. You know, a lot of emotions, feelings, and- and things come up within our relationship with our clients and when they come back to see us and they spill all their tea to us, right? And we have no proper professional training on how to handle holding those types of spaces for people, because not only do we want to hold a proper, actually helpful and impactful space for those conversations, but we also wanna make sure that we set boundaries for ourselves and we don't let those conversations drain our energy, right?

O- or that we take that stuff personally, or we bring it home with us, or we end up making emotional decisions, or we get stressed out about it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so what Speaking Grief does, which is the program that we're gonna be talking about today, Speaking Grief teaches people in general how to support others in grief. And I just think it is such a brilliant project. I think it is so needed and so not talked about, and I have just learned an immense amount of things that...

from this program that have... that has taught me to approach so many different things in my life so differently, in a much more effective and helpful way. And so that's exactly why I wanted to bring my friend, Kristen, she's actually a client of mine, and Lindsay on. They both worked on, and I think Lindsay, like, really spearheaded the project, uh, Speaking Grief, and they're gonna be coming on to share some tea with y'all, okay?

So I am so excited for you guys to get into this in... uh, this, um, episode. I will say a little bit of a trigger warning. You know, we're gonna be talking about death.

We're gonna be talking about hard times, et cetera, et cetera, so just know that. I think that this could be a very healing episode for you. I think this could make you not feel alone and feel very validated in what you have going on. But I do- do wanna make sure that you, you know, have the trigger warning ahead of time.

And I need to note that the presenters are not licensed therapists or medical professionals. This presentation is intended for informational purposes only, and is not intended to be a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical or mental health condition. Please consult your physician or other qualified healthcare provider immediately if you are experiencing any suicidal thoughts.

If you are in crisis, help is available through texting FUTURE to 741741 for free, 24/7 support in the US and/or by calling the National Suicide Prevention Hotline at 1-800-273-8255. More information is available within the show notes. I'll let you go check that out yourself. Sorry for the long disclaimer.

Y'all know we had to do it. So, so much love. Let's get into it. Let's go.

Let me guess. You are a hustling, bustling hairstylist behind the chair, working so hard to build a beautiful career for yourself, one that gives you time, freedom, and energy to spend with yourself, your family, and your friends. But you feel like you're always working in your business, even when you're not behind the chair. My name's Hunter Donia, and I help you automate your systems and implement really beautiful strategies so you can grow your business without the overwhelm.

And this is the Modern Hairstylist Podcast. Hello, friend. Welcome back to the Modern Hairstylist Podcast. I am beyond excited today because I actually have one of my favorite guests of all time on the podcast with me, and also a beautiful, very knowledgeable human that I've learned so much from, on to share some amazing things with us today.

As an industry, we... we're- we're in a really unique position, right? Because we create such emotional connections with the people that we work with, and all too often, we kinda get into situations in conversation in those emotional relationships in which sometimes we don't know how to approach them. We can get into awkward stickiness, and sometimes we can say the right thing, say the wrong thing.

Sometimes we just don't even know what to say. And so that's why I'm really, really excited to introduce to you guys the Speaking Grief Project. It is just so brilliant, and my guest, Kristen, who I'm gonna be introducing in just a moment, um, she was the one who introduced me to this amazing program, and I have been able to personally learn so much from it, and it is applied to so many places in my life, not just my business Behind the Chair, but also just how I'm moving in my life as well. And so I- I- I really wanted to bring it to you guys because I think that everybody should know about this situation.

So, I am going to have you guys, Kristen and Lindsay, please go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about Speaking Grief. Lindsay, do you wanna- do we wanna start with you? Sure. Well, I'll introduce myself.

I'll kick it to Kristen, and then I'll- I'll go into the project. Um, so I'm Lindsay Whissel Fenton, um, I'm a senior producer director at WPSU. So we are the CBS NPR affiliate station for Central Pennsylvania, and I'm the, um, producer director and writer of Speaking Grief, and I'm joined by Kristen Bittner. Hi, I'm Kristen.

I am an instructional designer at Penn State WPSU. Instructional designers study how people learn, and I worked with Lindsay to create a lot of the educational resources around grief.So, um, I'll try to keep it brief. Speaking Grief is a multi-platform, public media— public media initiative to create a more grief-aware and grief-responsive society.

WPSU started producing this several years ago. It was created with, um, thank you to the generous support, uh, philanthropic support of the New York Life Foundation to, again, to help people get more comfortable with this really uncomfortable topic that is also really universal and is pretty much inescapable, um, throughout our lives. So, Speaking Grief is... A lot of people are familiar with at least this one component.

It's a documentary, so there's a 60-minute documentary that aired on PBS stations across the country and is also available online. There's a website, speakinggrief.org. Uh, that's where you'll see a lot of c- Kristen's amazing work.

So, the website has resources for if you're grieving, for if you are trying to support someone who's grieving, for if you're just trying to understand what this whole thing called grief is. There's also a ton of videos on there, we have expert interviews, we have profiles with other grieving folks who were not featured in the film but who shared their stories with us and—and shared their insight with us. We have a lot of education that we do on Facebook and Instagram, so @wpsugrief. We post pretty much daily, little micro-lessons about how to understand or— or respond to grief.

And, uh, we're still continuing to grow the initiative, so we're doing things like, uh, regular webinar events, trying to put some new content out on social media and on the website, but there's a lot to absorb. Uh, and I would say one thing that sets Speaking Grief apart from a lot of other sort of grief things is that there's resources out there for people who are grieving, and we certainly have those, but Speaking Grief really focuses on grief just being a skill that we need to be human and what we, as someone who encounters grief that may not be our own, like how we can be supportive and compassionate to someone else's grief and how we can hold space for them to do their grief and— and have their experience however they choose. So, that is Speaking Grief in a nutshell. Yes.

Obsess, love. I'm just so into this project. And I love that you mentioned, like, this is a project that isn't the majority, right? Like— like, this is something that can be a missing piece to grief education, because we can help people who are grieving but what about all of the other people around them who are, like, actually interacting with them in their day-to-day?

Like, that's how we make an actual impact, right, I feel like. So, I think that this is so brilliant, and— and even then some, I feel like in those resources, they don't cover this kind of stuff too, and I think that even somebody who is grieving can learn a lot from this, from learning how to help others grieve and to maybe what to expect from people, and to also understand, like, the stigma an- and everything like that, right? If— If I can add one— one— just one more footnote, too. So, when we say grief, Speaking Grief focuses a lot on death-related grief, but grief shows up in so many spaces, in so many parts of our lives, and— and I always like to say we are not comparing them.

Like, death-related grief is different than— than divorce grief or grief 'cause you're moving or changing jobs, but they are all valid forms of grief and human experience. So, we like to put that out there that— that these skills apply to a lot of different scenarios. So, if you're listening to this, you're like, "Well, I don't— I've never had anyone die," or, "I don't know anyone who's had someone die," there's still something here for you, I promise, um, because these are just— this shows up, and is— we were saying before we got started today, like, you start realizing how much grief shows up in your life and that these skills come into play over and over and over again, so this conversation is for everybody. I— Yeah, I completely agree.

Like, these skills has— have helped me as a facilitator, as a hairstylist, as a human being so much in so many different situations, so I love it. And so, just to share a little bit, just so that way you as a listener listening to this, and if you're a hairstylist, right, can, like, kind of relate with me for a second as to why I thought that this program was really important for me. So, I had just opened up my salon suite and I had a w- a woman who I freaking love, she is s- one of my favorite clients as well. She— she had came and, uh, seen my suite for the first time and we had a great appointment, everything was beautiful and great, she congratulated me, it was fantastic, and I think, like, two weeks later, her son passed away in a tragic accident, and it was, like, super sudden and it was not cool.

It was absolutely awful. And I was going to see her for her follow-up appointment two weeks after that, and I had so much anxiety around seeing her again. I'm like, "How— what do I say? Like, how do I hold space for this right now?

I can't just pretend that I don't know that this happened, and— but I'm also don't want to say the wrong thing, I don't want to act like it's this big thing. Maybe she doesn't want to talk about it, maybe she does want to talk about it." And it gave me so much anxiety. And— and— but— and— and I— and I also really wanted to make sure that I held a space that was healthy for her and helpful for her, and I was like, "H- I— I don't even know where to start."

And, um, luckily, I kind of just, like, went with my gut, and when she came in, I just kind of, like, asked her how she wanted the appointment to go. Like, I— I gave— I left it up to her, which I now know was kind of, like, the right thing to do, quote-unquote, but it really did give me a lot of anxiety, and I was like, "There is— there is no way that there's not other service providers in general who h- who experience this sa- this same, um, unsuredness, like, approaching these types of situations, especially hairstylists, right?" So, when Kristen, um, told me about what she was getting involved with, I just thought it was really freaking fantastic and I have learned so much and I feel really confident walking into these situations now, and that's exactly why I wanted to share it with you guys. today.

So, we have a couple different bullet points, um, that we want to, uh, that w- we, we wanna touch on that we think will be helpful for, for you guys listening. And so, if we wanna start off with, I think that this was a big... Kristen and I have been talking about this all the time and from the, from the beginning, and I think that, um, as hairstylists, I talk all about boundaries, right? Like, you listening to this, y'all know I am a boundaries queen, I'm all about the boundaries.

And I think that, you know, when we're supporting people through a hard time, I think that boundaries are super important. And so, Kristen, you've talked about, um, the difference between cognitive empathy and... What's the other one? What's the other word for it?

Emotional empathy. Emotional empathy. So, e- either one of y'all, if y'all wanna take it away and talk about the difference between that and, like, what practicing that actually looks like. Sure.

So, as a service provider, you're doing the work that you're doing because you care about other people, and it can be really tricky to balance between, um, hearing another person's situation and, um, taking their perspective and understanding their feelings. Like, that's cognitive empathy, where you can sort of see where they're coming from. And then emotional empathy is where you feel the way that they're feeling. You feel distressed in response to their distress.

Um, feeling compassion is a great part of emotional empathy, but allowing yourself to get devastated because they're devastated can be really exhausting for you emotionally. So, it's good to have both, but try to balance both. And I think in a professional setting, having cognitive empathy and having some validation and compassion for their situation, without then letting it wreck, you know, your professionalism, and, like, your whole week or day or life is really, really important to s- kind of s- try to strike that balance. So, I had never heard of the difference between the two.

I just thought empathy is understanding other people, and that's great. We want to be able to be empathic, um, or empathetic, but really, you have to really have your own awareness of what is having compassion for this person doing to you, and is that something that you need to take on emotionally and really feel, or can you validate and support them without also taking on that, that pain? Does that make sense? Yeah.

That totally makes sense. That was, like, a beautiful breakdown. Lindsay, do you have anything to add? I was just gonna say, I'm a, I l- I've come to love the quote, "You can't pour from an empty cup."

So, boundaries are, like, your best friend here, and boundaries do not make you a selfish person. They make you, actually, a better person. So, I, I suffered from this when I was researching this project where I had no boundaries around how many conversations I was having with people about how much space I was holding people, how much time I was giving to people as I was learning about their grief experience. And I definitely felt that, like, compassion fatigue and burnout, where I just h- I had no more empathy to give because I was not protecting and setting up any boundaries whatsoever.

So, that doesn't actually help the person either. And I think too in this, especially if you're in your place of work, and I know we're gonna talk more about how we can establish boundaries, but it is okay if someone is, is sharing something that triggers you or that, you know... Sometimes we can, we can hear one thing and it'll be okay, but then something else will just kind of, you know, hit a, hit a point in us that brings up a lot. It's okay, and it doesn't make you a not-good person.

You can still be compassionate to say, "Wow, this sounds like so much and, you know, I really wanna hold space for you, and I'm sorry you're going through this, but I have to be honest in that, you know, this is, this is also bringing up, you know, it's triggering me, it's bringing up a lot for me, and, you know, I have... I'm in my workplace, I have a lot to get through today, so I wanna hold that space for you, but I don't know that I can, you know, talk about these things or hear this right now. How else can I, um, you know, show you love right now without, without getting into this?" Like, it is okay to advocate for yourself if you are getting too triggered.

Yeah. I, I'm a hu- I love that, and I'm a huge advocate of, "You can't pour from an empty cup." It's so true. Like, if you wanna make a responsible and effective impact, then you need to be coming from a space where you are ac- actually able to do that, and you're not gonna be able to do that if you are allowing yourself to be drained.

Brené Brown says that in her, like, 15 to 20 years of work and research, that she's found that the absolute most compassionate, like, amazing people were also the absolute most boundaried at the end of the day, which I think is so powerful and crazy. C- 'cause you, you said it. Like, we think that we're being selfish when we set boundaries for ourself, when in reality, it's like one of the most selfless things that you can do for yourself, for your family, for your friends, for the people that you're interacting with day in, day out. I love that.

And so, let's, so, like, let's dive a little bit deeper into boundaries, and, like, some tangible actions, maybe, as to how we can still support people, right? But maybe protect ourselves and, like, and, like, what we're bringing on, and also maybe curb a little bit of the anxiety or unpreparedness that we have walking into that. So, I think it's important to look at this from two different perspectives, because as the service provider, you also have your own life that's going on . You have your own stuff that's happening that morning before work or in your personal life.

So, something that's important about boundaries is to really think about these things ahead of time. So, you're, you s- you set up everything else for your business ahead of time, so your, your own personal boundaries are something you need to consider before the situation is happening. So, if you're going through something in your personal life...Uh, you need to decide ahead of time what you are or are not comfortable sharing with your clients.

There are things that you're just not gonna wanna talk about at work. If you live in a salon space that's shared with other stylists, there might be things that you don't want them to know about your personal life, 'cause you don't wanna have to talk about it during your break or between clients or whatever. And that's okay. That's not selfish.

That's a boundary, and that can be really healthy for you. Or you can decide that, you know, first-time clients, second-time clients will get a slightly different version of what might be happening in case you have to cancel appointments or whatever, in case, you know, you decide what you want to, want them to know. But if you do it ahead of time, you sort of are able to protect yourself and establish, you know, how much of this am I willing to share, um, without being surprised by it and then, like, you spill all your guts and then, and then it's awkward every time because you've maybe shared more than you wanted to. Um, so it's really important to establish those things ahead of time.

And then in relation to your, your clients specifically, decide what kind of support you want to consistently offer. So and if you want to offer any sort of consistent support, like, and, and every client that, every... We all have lives. Things are always happening, good, bad, and, you know, in the middle.

But, um, is it a handwritten note? Is it an essential oil roller? Is it, you know, what, what is your go-to support gesture? Is it that pre-survey question, um, before the client comes in that says, "I've got stuff going on.

Let's not talk about personal stuff today"? You know, but decide something that you can consistently offer across clients, because again, this is a business decision for you. If you're going to give free services, if you're going to offer, you know, more of your time, like, you really need to consider that as a business decision, not just an emotional reaction to what somebody's going through. Um, so it's really important, again, to just plan for these things before they're happening in your chair in front of you.

Yeah, and I would just add to that, like, we all have different strengths too, so I think this is one of the beautiful things in, in grief work and in human work, is that, uh, maybe you are someone who's super comfortable listening and you have a really, like, high tolerance for, for hearing hard things and keeping those healthy boundaries, but maybe you're not, like, a feelings person. That is okay. You don't have to be, 'cause I think everyone... The idea behind Speaking Grief is that if we all do the thing that is sort of natural to us, like, that person will get the support they need.

They don't need to get all of those supports from us. So maybe you're not a feelings person, but maybe you express love through, um, through touch, and we talked about that extra scalp massage, and that, or, you know, an extra-long scalp massage, which can be a huge thing, especially if someone's grieving maybe the, the loss of a partner. Um, they might be missing that touch, so that actually might be super healing for them, and they don't need to talk about it. Um, or maybe it is that handwritten note.

So, so I guess the point is try to have compassion and don't feel like your support has to look a certain way. As Kristen said, it's a business decision, but it's also a you decision and, and showing up a way that feels authentic to you, that is the most compassionate way you can show up for someone. Yeah. Love it.

Absolutely love. My personal situation is, like, if somebody comes in and they tell me that they're, that they're, even if they're just having a shitty day , like, or they've had something absolutely astronomically crazy happen to them, the extra-long scalp massage is just, like, the perfect way to go, dude. Like, it truly is. And, like, I make sure to, like, say that I'm, say that I'm doing it, you know?

Like, I make sure to say, like, "Okay, like, I'm so sorry to hear, like, what you're going through, and today, if, like, if you let me, and if you, if I, just, just because I feel like it may make you feel better, I would love to give you, like, a super extra-long scalp massage where you can really just relax and, like, take care of yourself today." And, like, it just works, and it's, like, all I have to do is just use my body for, like, an extra five minutes to, like, make an impact on that person. So having... But I love that we talked about being prepared, and I talk about systems all the time.

Having a system, right, to, to help you in carrying out these actions so that way we're not making, like, emotional decisions that may do more harm than good or put you in an awkward position, right? So that's why s- I love systems so freaking much. And, like, people don't really think about that as a system, but it truly, really is. And we, we have our own, as business owners, as service providers, we have our own personal lives w- that we need to make emotional, crazy decisions in every single day, and we don't have to be doing that in our business.

But if you still, if you wanna make an impact, it can be as simple as making these proactive decisions about what you're going to share, how you are gonna support, and what that looks like, and how it feels authentic to you. So love, love, love, love, love, love. So let's talk about, like, the dos and don'ts, okay? Let's talk about some dos and don'ts.

Maybe we wanna start off with, like, what people maybe think that they have to do or what they don't have to do, I guess, right? So we were talking about how sometimes people feel like if they don't react emotionally, um, then they feel like they're being, like, a bad person or, like, they're, th- that they're doing something wrong or, like, they're an asshole or, like, whatever it may be. So what about that? What do we think about that?

Well, I think the first thing I just wanna say, and this goes back to you, thank you for sharing the story about your anxiety going into a grieving client. The one thing I wish people could take away is you do not have to know.... what to do, what to say. Like, yeah, have your system in place, have a plan.

But the hard truth is, there is, there is not gonna be a perfect thing, especially not a perfect thing that you can say, or a perfect thing that you can do. Like, key in grief work is humility and authenticity and just being real. So I know for me, that has freed up so much of that anxiety. I mean, it still, it's still hard to see someone in pain.

It's always gonna be hard and I'm, you know, we always have that anxiety. But not feeling like I need, like it rests on my shoulders to say this perfect pearl of wisdom that's just gonna take all the pain away. Like, it does not work like that, so just free yourself of that, of that self-imposed expectation. And I find, like, the very best thing is just to start off from a real place of, "Wow, this is really hard.

I wish I knew what to say," or, "I'm not sure exactly what to say, but I just, I see you and I feel for you. This is, this is hard what you're going through." And pause there. Let them react to that.

And I think what we tend to do is, is not that, is we tend to come from that place of, "Oh my gosh, I, it's all me. I have to say this thing," and then we go into some of the really problematic behaviors that we've all been taught, so, like, we are all guilty of these. But the, um, you know, Krystin's coined a few terms like the at leasting or the bright siding. So like, you know, some of the things that tend to just, if you've ever been on the receiving end, just think about, you know, like nails on a chalkboard, like, somebody died.

"Oh, well, at least they're not in pain anymore," or, "At least they lived a good life." Okay, the sentiment is, is, might be from a good place, but it, it kind of sounds dismissive. Or the, "Well, yeah, look on the bright side, at least," you know, or, you know, you, "This happened for a reason." Any of those types of things essentially are more about dispelling our discomfort of like, "Okay, well, I said the thing, check," than they are about actually seeing someone else's pain.

So that's really uncomfortable territory for most of us. But it has to happen in order for it to be a meaningful experience. Like, you have to let the person feel what they're feeling without saying or doing something to try to just shut it down, 'cause that's actually not holding space. That's actually just, it's expressing discomfort.

It's actually letting them know that like, "Okay, I, it's not okay for me to have these feelings around this person. So one of my favorite, excuse me, quotes is from one of the experts that we worked with on the documentary. She's an author and, and grief expert, um, Megan Divine. And she says, "Grief is not something that can be fixed, but it's something that can be carried."

So I think often, as an attempt to try to help somebody feel better, we do try to fix it with those statements. We try to say, "Oh, at least you had them in, as long as you did," and those other examples that Lindsay gave. Or all those other judgments that we make on somebody's grief. So maybe something happened to a client five years ago, and every Easter, they get really upset because it happened right before Easter.

And you're thinking, "How are you still upset about this? This happened so long ago." That is not your place, you know. That is so judge-y.

And we, we do this, we do this to our close family members, we do this, we do this all the time. So I think another thing that Megan taught us to do is just to notice those things in your day-to-day conversations. Maybe not about something huge. Maybe about, you know, a car breaking down, or a spilled cup of coffee.

Do you dismiss and say, like, "Oh, well, at least they gave you a free one," after it spilled at Starbucks or whatever. Or, "At least you have a car," when your car broke down. Saying at least, saying, "Oh, you're, you're still not through this," or, "You, you still haven't gotten rid of their clothes," or, "You still wear your wedding ring," or, "You haven't taken your wedding ring off," you know. Or, "You have taken your wedding ring off."

You know, there's no winning. Exact. Um, just being aware of how, how you react to those day-to-day things will also prepare you and sort of help you to practice for the bigger things, because each of these experiences is very different. And even if you've experienced something very similar, or if you know someone who has experienced something very similar, we think it's helpful to, like, jump in with that story right away, or to jump in with, you know, filling the silence somehow.

Now is not the time to fill the silence. Now is not the time to jump in with your own story about when you miscarried, or when your sister's boyfriend's cousin, whatever, you know. It's okay to just validate that, "Oh my goodness, this is so hard," and leaving it there, leaving it up to them to tell you about what they're going through. I experienced infertility, and even when other women share with me that they're going through infertility, I always try so hard to listen first, and then when we're at the point in the conversation where I think it's appropriate, I can say, you know, "I also experienced infertility, and if you think it would be helpful for me to share my story, you know, let me know when, when that might be helpful."

But just jumping in with your own stuff makes the conversation now about you, and not about the person who's confiding in you. And I think in there, you also hit on a couple misconceptions we should just call out, because they will influence very largely how you respond to grief. One is that there's sort of this, like, finite timeframe that grief happens in, or that, like, it is allowed to happen in, and that is just not true. That's not how humans work.

Grief is not a process. It's something that we experience and we learn to integrate, but it doesn't go away. It changes.... and it might look different.

And I think that's important to note too, is that it might look different every time you see someone. So if you see someone for one appointment and they seem to be doing, you know, air quotes, better, or they seem happy, but then the next time they come in and they're very obviously distressed again, that's normal, um, and that's something that happens to grieving people a lot, is that if they laugh, or they smile, or they manage to look put together one day, because we think of grief as something that ends, we're like, "Oh, good. They're, it, it's done. They're over it.

They're better." And it's like, no, that's just a day where it wasn't maybe as, as large in their mind. Um, and so just holding space for that. And then I think the other thing Kristen said with the, you know, with these experiences, all grief is so unique.

It's, it's unique from person to person, but it's even unique for you. Like, my grief for my one grandmother who died was different than my grief for my other grandmother, because your relationship with each of those people is unique. And so even if, as Kristen said, she's talking with another woman who experienced infertility, they didn't have the same experience. They, they had the same, I don't know, situation, for lack of a better term, but the experience is always different.

So just holding space for those differences, and not assuming. Yeah. Assumptions, right? Like, not making assumptions.

I know that, um, I know that, Lindsay, you were talking a little bit about your story about assumptions, um, and I think that it's something that can come up a lot in our industry, if you still feel okay with sharing what you shared, because I think it, it can really impact a lot of people. Absolutely. So I shared that I was, I went through a divorce last year, and a weird thing that happened is that a lot of people, when I would tell them, would immediately go to this, "Oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry." And, you know, and it was, divorce is so complicated, so it was, you know, in every situation, but especially in, in mine.

You know, my, my wasband is a wonderful person. He's a beautiful human being. I still love him. I still respect him.

And it was a, a just thing where we both ended up kind of just being able to do some growth and, and some things on our own that weren't possible together. So yes, the divorce was, was heartbreaking. Divorce generally is. But it wasn't this purely bad thing.

Like, there were some good things that came for each of us from it. And so when people would go right to the s- sort of devastation, despair, it, it, it made me feel strange, because then I would almost have to come back with, "No, it's okay." And then that felt like a weird thing to say, 'cause it's like, well, it's not okay. It's really hard.

And also, you know, now, almost, you know, six months, a year out, my feelings are very different. And now, it is a, it's more, you know, it's, I have different feelings about it as the dust has settled. And so what I have found to be really helpful, and that I try to do for other people is, again, stay curious and not make those assumptions. So if someone says they're getting divorced, also just you don't know what the situation is.

Maybe there was abuse involved, and it, and it is just a kind of purely positive thing. You know, whatever it is, I would just lead with, if someone says, you know, "I'm getting divorced," instead of jumping to the assumption, just going with, "Okay, how are you feeling about that? That's big. How are you feeling about that?"

That, to me, feels a little bit more curious. And yeah, acknowledge that, wow, that's, that's big news, 'cause it is. But then let them tell you if it's good, bad, positive, neutral, whatever. You know, let them communicate their experience instead of assuming that we know what it is.

Which is, with any of this stuff, too, I just wanna keep throwing out there, you're not a bad person if you've done any of these things. We have all said the things, um, you know, which we were saying about at-leasting or bright-siding. Um, we're not saying that to shame you. The reason we created this project, and as Kristen said, we created it with some of the, you know, brighter minds than ours who work in this space, is because we just have a lot of relearning to do.

We are all subject to the same culture that sort of taught us these weird norms about grief. And so if you responded in the space of any of these norms, it's just 'cause that's, that's what we were, you know, petri-dished in, and that's what we, we learn. And so this isn't about beating yourself up. It's about learning, growing, and, you know, how can we, how can we refrain this, and maybe, um, be more supportive in the future?

It's not about, "Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I said that in the past. Okay. Love so many things. There's like two or three things I wanna unpack.

So the first thing was, did you just, did you say wasband? I was gonna say the same thing. I was like, oh, my God, I love that. I, actually, I can't take credit for that.

I stole that. I'm a rock climber. I stole that from my climbing partner. Uh, she uses that term, and I have sort of adopted it, 'cause it sounds so much gentler to me than ex-husband, and it's so much more reflective of how I feel about my wasband, um, 'cause again, he's a wonderful person.

I just love it. I am obsessed. I've never heard that before. That is cool.

The, uh, the other thing that I just wanna point out, 'cause I, we've talked about this before, it's so fascinating to me how, in, in, um, like the inclusivity education that I've gotten, like, uh, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, uh, uh, education that I've gotten, how much overlap there is with all these conversations that we're having, and, like, how it really is, like, about, like, stop talking, start listening, hold space. Like, all of that. It just, it's so, it's so interesting to me. Very interesting.

And then also, I love that you just shared, like, y- you listening to this friend. Like, don't, don't start to feel all guilty. I mean, you might, right? You might just inherently start to feel guilty about maybe what you have said.

But it's okay. We've all, we, these are all, like, learned behaviors. These are behaviors that we haven't been taught to, to, uh...We haven't been taught about this stuff yet and that's why I'm excited to share this with people because, you know, we, we wanna, we wanna create the best case scenario.

We wanna make the best impact possible. And so, um, I'm excited to talk about, like... I know we, like, we've sprinkled in, like, a fair bit of things already. But like, as far as, like, verbiage and words, what are the words?

Like, what is, like, the, like, what can we actually say that is, like, super helpful? And then, again, I know that we already talked about it a little bit, so it's okay if we repeat. I just wanna be super clear for people so that way they really are clear about that moving forward. I'm gonna let Kristin give some words, but I wanna just quick hit on, as you said, like, instead of beating yourself up, the magic of this is that for the most part, you can go back .

You can fix stuff. Like, if you have said something and you're hearing this, like, it is, it is gold star if you have the empathy to go to someone that maybe you recently, or even not recently, said one of those things to, um, you know, on kind of our don't list and just say, "You know, wow, I, I was thinking about this thing I said last time I saw you, and I think I realize how it came across and that was, you know, my intention was to be loving and I just, I re, I heard it in a different way and I don't think it came across as loving. You know, I just wanted to acknowledge that and let you know that, you know, that, I know it wasn't okay that I said that, or, you know, m- I don't know how that landed with you, but I wasn't feeling good about it, you know? So I ju- I just wanted to, to acknowledge that I said that, that it, that my words or actions did not match my intentions.

And, you know, to ask if we can kinda move forward from that." So, going back is A-okay. Yeah, absolutely. I think in all of this, coming from a place of authenticity is so important.

If you're not a person that would say, "Oh, my deepest condolences," don't say that. Who the hell says that? Nobody says that. It's not Victorian England.

Nobody says that , like, nobody. So if you say, like, "That really sucks," because it does, that's okay. And yeah, exactly, Hunter, like, you don't have to fill all of the silence. It's okay that they don't wanna talk about it, or it's okay that you don't have any more questions to ask.

Like, that's okay. Silence doesn't have to be uncomfortable. Silence can be a gift. So, let's say you're not sure if you should keep asking, like, your client with the accident, like, should you keep asking how they are or keep checking in?

If you're not sure, ask, "Is it okay if I check in with you from time to time about this? Is it okay if I check in to see if you wanna talk about it during our time together? Would you ever wanna tell me a story or a favorite memory about your person?" You know what I mean?

Like, that kinda stuff can be a huge gift because often we talk about people who have died by their, um, like, category , like, my spouse, my partner, my son, my cousin. We don't use their name after, you know, they're gone, which is heartbreaking, right? So, if you know their name, use it. If you don't, ask it.

And then ask, "Is it okay if I ask you about Tyler from time to time?" Or whatever it is. I think remembering to say their name and remembering to keep asking is really, really important, because you might see a client for five, 10 years and you may only see them twice a year, but every single time they come to you, that's part of their story. That's part of who they are.

And if you think of it and you want to acknowledge it, go ahead. And if you're not sure how, ask. Like, it's okay to be awkward. It's okay, um, to embrace that.

And, you know, just ask a question. And you'll t- you'll be able to tell pretty quickly if the person's like, "Nope, don't wanna do that here." Totally fine, you know? That's totally fine.

Some other things people have asked have been like, "What do I say when, you know, X happens?" And I would say, you know, come up, come up with some scripts ahead of time of what feels comfortable and what feels authentic. Like, it's not inauthentic for you to prepare ahead of time for what you might say when these situations come up. It's completely responsible and kind and a, and a gracious gift for you to figure out what is comfortable for you to say.

So, things that I like to say are like, "I am so sorry this is happening to you." You know, "Do you wanna talk more about it?" Or, "I care about you and I'm here for you, and I know that there is nothing I can do or say, but I'm here for you." Or if it's like a family member, um, I love to cook, so I will always ask , "Can I bring you a meal?"

You know, "Can I bring you stuff for your freezer so you don't have to think about that?" Lindsay don't cook for me, right? Like, she has her own skills . Cooking is not one of them .

Yeah, so I mean, just what is your thing? What is comfortable for you to say? Um, and I think as a service provider, kind of know your role. You are not a licensed clinician.

It is not your responsibility to give any advice or to fix anything or to take away their pain or to get them into counseling. That is not your place, okay? So, if they do start to talk to you about stuff that you're like, "Whoa, I cannot hold this for you," it's okay for you to say, "Do you have anyone that you can talk to about this? Because I know that this is an area where I can't help you."

Or, "I can't hold this for you." Or, "This is really important, you know, is there s- is there some support, have you sought out any other support for this?" You're not should-ing them, you're not telling them what to do, you're not saying, "Girl, you need some therapy." Like , you know, you don't, you don't do that to other people.

You don't want people to do that to you.But it's okay to really come from a place, like Lindsay said, of, of curiosity instead of judgment, and just ask, like, "Is there someone that you can talk to about this? Is there, are there support resources that you've looked into for this?" Um, you know, because you are not that person.

You are there, you know, whatever service you're providing. But you're not their therapist, you're not their mom. You know, you're not their best friend. Um, so just know your role and be authentic about what you're saying.

And, you know, what, if you decide to provide anything, like Hunter said, extra-long scalp massage, you know, grace for rescheduling, whatever, just be authentic. And if you don't know what to say, it's okay to say that. Yeah. I think, just to follow up, that it is okay to, to not be those roles.

And as we said before, and I'll keep saying it, it's also okay to just show up as you and not who you think you're, like, supposed to be in this situation. Like as Kristin said, you know, the, the go-to for most people when there's a death is to, to bake them a casserole or cook them a casserole. Um, I do not cook, even... y- I just don't.

And so I'm like, I am the person, I can have the deep conversations, I can hold space for the feelings. I'm really handy. I can come fix your leaky faucet. I'm not gonna bring you a casserole.

And I had to be like, okay, that's okay, because other people who, like Kristin, who like to cook, are gonna bring the casserole. So just, it's totally fine to be real in this space. Um, and I was even just thinking as you were talking, like could it be, depending on the salon situation, maybe if you're by yourself, like maybe it's like, "Hey, would there be some music that would just give you life right now? Like could I, could I just put on a song and we'll just vibe together?"

The one thing that happens a lot with, with grief, people are often, a- along with the at least seeing the bright side, and it's sort of the like, oh, stay strong or hang in there. Like people are not given that permission to just kind of be a wreck, which is often what grief looks like. So if you're someone who's cool with it, like and can handle it, if they start crying in the chair, you should just let them cry. You know, say...

I mean, obviously you have to cut their hair, and if they're sobbing that might not work. But if there's these tear... You know, one of the most healing things a lot of people have said is like if someone just gives them permission to like, "You just cry as much as you want," versus what is our cultural norm is like, "Oh, don't cry. Don't cry.

It's okay." So if someone's crying, just be like, "You know what? This is your time. This is your space."

Like, let them have those tears. Or, another thing that might be in your wheelhouse is, a huge emotion in grief is anger. And a lot of times people are not allowed to be angry about stuff, especially if they're dealing with, um, you know, the, like a, the death of a family member, maybe someone who's, who's in a long-term illness. Like you're still gonna be angry or annoyed at that person, and a lot of other people in their life might not be comfortable with them giving voice to that anger.

So maybe, maybe that's your jam and you can be there in that way and just say, "You know what? This is a place where all of the angry things that you can't say to anybody else, like, let it rip. Swear, whatever you gotta do in life, anything that, that you wanna leave here stays here." And just allow that space for them, 'cause again, that's just not something that people get a lot, is just being told that how they feel is okay and they can express it.

So I think for a lot of people... I know, um, massages are kind of my number one self-care thing. I've never actually cried on the massage table, but I know afterwards, like that will just release a lot for me. So maybe this is the one thing that they do for themselves that, you know, they do feel like they can just let their guard down a little.

And I wanted to say on that too, especially when we're talking about maybe caretaker situations, check in with the person who is doing the care-taking. Um, I think we're getting better about this during COVID, but I will never forget So, so my mom's had breast cancer a couple times, and one t- the first time I was a junior in high school. I went to my dance studio and, um, Mama Nancy, the, uh, the... it was my dance teacher's mom who used to work the reception desk, she said, "How's your mom?"

And I said, "Oh, you know, she's whatever." She paused and looked at me and said, "How are you?" And I just burst into tears. I mean, I was 17 and I still remember that because I...

it's very easy to feel invisible or like your, your needs don't matter in those situations. So if you know that someone maybe has a, a sick relative or friend or family member that they are caring for, you know, that's, that's its own kind of grief as well Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So much goodness.

Oh my god. Yes. My, my mom went through some crazy shit this past year, and my stepdad was the one who was there for her, like the entire step of the way. Like, you know, like the one taking care of her.

And you guys talked about like, um, you know, we talked a lot about like do the thing that feels authentic to you, to like go out of your way to like help them, whatever. People kept on asking him, "Let me know if I can do anything for you." Nope. And that drove him up a wall.

I don't got time for that. That drove him up a wall. And instead, instead of that, I'm sure that he would've like appreciated like, "Do you mind if I drop off some food at your, at your house later? Do you mind...

D- Would you like me to take out the dog?" Like, and like let out the dog for whatever, for whatever. You know? Like, like things like that instead.

Or, I'm assuming, and tell me if you guys agree, if that person is somebody who isn't feeling authentically like they would like to go out of their way to do something for them, right, then just like don't say that. Right? Yeah, just don't y- it's okay to not offer. I also wanna r- rewind.

Kristin said something genius, which was maybe your thing that you offer them is grace during scheduling. Grief does a number on your brain. It's a real thing. Grief brings a real thing.

It makes it really hard to sometimes stay organized, stay focused. So your person might legitimately struggle with remembering when their appointments are. And so maybe that, that would be a great way to show compassion. Maybe if there's like a fee or something that normally...

like, again, business decision, but that could be a really great way to just be gentle. And that gets to that whole, "Let me know if you need anything," because your brain is fried. The last thing you have the capacity for is to try to discern what you need, figure out who you can ask for, and then take the steps to ask. People aren't good at accepting that support either.

Like if you ask, "Can I bring you..." blah, blah, blah. "Can I do this?" And this is really more around like friendship relationships and family relationships, not really like client relationships, right?

But, um, if you're serious about baking them cookies, like, just do it and say, like, "I'm bringing you cookies. I'm gonna put them on the porch. Let them there for the ants or bring them in, I don't care. I'm doing this."

You know what I mean? Um- Or give them maybe like, "I'm baking two batches of cookies, chocolate chip and peanut butter. Do you want one or both?" Or, y- you know, whatever the thing is.

Like, sometimes it is nice to give them a little bit of, of choice or like, "I... The way I know to show up for you is to do this or to offer to do this. I would love to run errands, I would love to clean. Would any of that be okay with you?"

And that way, they don't have to necessarily come to you, but it, it just makes it easier to, to actually get them the help they need. And you can offer a few things like that and just say, you know, "Would any of this feel good?" Or if it doesn't feel good this week, this is the big one, "Okay. You know, I'd like to check back in next week and see if that's okay."

'Cause that's another huge thing, is that support tends to come all at once, and then disappears. And as we've talked about, grief does not disappear. It lasts pretty much forever. Yeah.

I like the... I like the push with choice. Yes. You know?

I like the push with choice because Kristen's so tr- it's so true. Like, people will have a hard time accepting it, but also giving them a little bit of leeway, right? I love it. Love, love, love, love, love.

I think that we have spoken about... I mean, we could keep talking. We could keep going. Like, there's so much more to this and that's why I'm really excited that you guys have resources for people to go to at any time in the comfort of their home, on their phones, whatever.

And so, I know that we shared a little bit of those resources already, but I would love to hear a refresher of what those are. We're gonna leave those in the show notes, um, so make sure wherever you're listening to this, friends, in a safe space, if you wanna, um, find, like, links and resources, you can find them in the description of this episode. But please share where people can, like, go and get everything that they need from you guys to keep on moving forward in this journey if they would like to. Definitely.

Speakinggrief.org. Uh, and so that you'll find the documentary, but I would urge you, don't just watch the documentary. I mean, watch it, it's great, but there are some fantastic resources that the brilliant mind of Kristen Buettner designs to be practical, actionable, like, understandable.

These are not wonky resources. These are basically just the conversations we had of like, "Here are specific things you can say," or, "Here's a bunch of ideas of something you can offer." Like, there's stuff like that. And then, we also share a lot of those out on Facebook and Instagram @wpsugrief.

So, that is a phenomenal resource. I don't know of when this is gonna air, but we also have a great webinar that's gonna be coming up for, for service industry folks, hosted by Hunter. Yes. Um, that'll be in June, correct?

June. We're still working on the date, but maybe you can... Just a shout-out to your, to your folk. Yes.

Brilliant idea. Um, I, uh... This will be airing before that happens, so yeah. So if...

I will be moderating a panel about, um, about speaking Greek for service providers. So, I think it's June 21st, and I'm... would be happy to have you guys there. I'm gonna blast it on social media and stuff, so that's gonna be freaking cool.

I'm very excited and honored that you asked me to be a part of that. I think it's gonna be freaking awesome. Um, and y'all, their Instagram is popping. Like, y'all's Insta...

I tell Kristen this all the time whenever she's in my chair. I'm like, "You guys have a crazy Instagram. Like, it's so good, and like, people are obsessed with it." So friend, it...

At the very least, go follow the Instagram, and also watch the documentary and, like, lean into those resources. And you're so right. Like, on the website, there is, like, actionable, really helpful, and also to-the-point resources that, like, give you exactly what you need for what you're looking for in the moment. So, it's a brilliant program.

Thank you guys so much, everybody involved, you both and everybody else who has been involved. Thank you so much for bringing these resources to the table for everybody in the world. We really, really appreciate it. And thank you for having a little bit of these specialized conversations with us too, because it's different depending on the role that you're coming from, right?

And I think as service providers, I think the... you know, like, the boundary side is super important, and it's something that I preach to all the time. But having boundaries doesn't mean that you can't, you can't make an impact and you can't be a compassionate person. I love that you talked about, you know, like, leeway with, like, cancellation policies and stuff.

Like, I preach all about systems and policies and stuff like that, because hairstylists have, um, historically not had these boundaries and, and not taking themselves seriously as professionals and, and protected their s- their time. But it's so important that we don't go so far left with, like, like, holding strong in our boundaries that we, we don't wanna forget to be a good human at the end of the day. And, and even having a system for like, "Okay, like, I know that this person's going through a hard time. If I know somebody's going through a hard time, then this is what happens.

Then I, then I waive this situation." Maybe it's like a, a three strikes rule or something like that, right? And so, I love that you talked about that. I also talk a lot about personalizing and customizing the client experience and to me, this whole conversation is holding space and creating a space that the person wants to have, right?

Like, letting that person be in control of how the conversation goes and what that experience looks like. And so, so my brain always goes back to business with any type of conversation, but it's, like, so interesting because that's all you have to do, right? That's all you have to do. So, thank you both so freaking much.

I appreciate this conversation so much. I appreciate that I get to connect and work with you guys so freaking much. And thank you, listener, for tuning in. Do you guys want to say your last goodbyes and, and peace out with us Absolutely.

I just wanna say thank you for this opportunity. It was... I, I always feel like it's weird to say it was fun, but it is fun talking about feelings and being human. And to anybody listening, you are amazing for showing up for this conversation about a topic that can be so scary.

I hope, if nothing else, you realize, like, it doesn't have to be as scary as we make it. And just, you know, thank you for being here and for wanting to grow. That's awesome. Absolutely.

You're doing a freaking great job. I think that we don't tell ourselves that enough either. Like, yeah, showing up for some professional development, learning more about these interpersonal skills, these sort of, you know, be a good human life skills is so important for all of us. So, thank you for being that person.

Yeah. Badass. I love it. Thank you both so much.

Friend, go and check out those resources, check out the show notes, and if you liked this episode and if you like The Modern Hairstylist Podcast, make sure to go and leave a five-star review wherever you're listening to this. I would really appreciate it. It helps get these important messages out to more hairstylists and service providers just like you. So, thank you so much for that in advance.

And until next time, peace out, girl scout. Bye-bye.

End of transcript. © 2022 Hunter Donia LLC.