The "Toxic Hustle Culture" Debate

Hello, my friend. Welcome back to the Modern Hairstylist podcast. Recently, I was at Premiere Orlando, and, um, my good friend, Rob, who runs the Hairdressers Strong podcast, um, and he does really cool local events for the beauty industry in, uh, Washington D.C.

, he was there and he did a little of an, a little bit of an interview with me and a bunch of other people who were attending the hair show. And he asked me, um, how I felt about hustle culture and how there's a big push towards, like, looking at hustle culture as toxic and unhealthy. And, uh, you know, obviously, it's definitely a push from this incoming generation, which I guess I would be a part of in one way or another. I'm, like, right at the, I'm right at the cusp, um, of being, um, in that generation.

And it really, like, reinforced my understanding and awareness that, like, this is a really big debate that's happening right now. And, uh, my good friend, Caitlin's here with me today. Super excited to have her back on the pod. And Caitlin's gonna be sharing a little bit more about, um, you know, generational differences and how this conversation comes up a lot, but I swear I have been seeing this on social media non-stop, and I'm talking...

And I see, like, a lot more of the, uh, just like influencers and just people's opinions going back and forth between, like, work smarter, not harder or, like, take care of yourself. And then on the flip side, it's like, oh, well, you're just being lazy and, um, hard work is the only way that you'll get anywhere and et cetera, et cetera. And I think that, like, for me personally, I think that there has to be a balance of both and I think there has to be, like, strategy, and also it has to be fitting for you and your own journey. And I think that we shouldn't be holding anybody to a one-fits-all box standard because everybody has their own unique experiences, and, um, we're gonna be breaking it down today.

And, um, again, I'm really excited to have Caitlin back on the podcast. Caitlin, what's going on? How are you? Hey, friend.

I'm good. How are you doing? I'm so fricking good. I'm so glad that I get to chat with you today.

I think that, uh, having conversations about stuff like this with you, I, is so productive 'cause I know that you're passionate about it and I know that people are gonna love what you have to say. For people who haven't heard you on the Modern Hairstylist podcast before, would you mind giving us a brief introduction? So, my name is Caitlin. I am a retired hairstylist, if you will.

I am an Instagram marketing coach for hairstylists now. I used to work behind the chair for about 10 plus years, and now I'm doing the marketing thing, and I'm super excited to chime in with all of my input on whatever we're gonna talk about today. It's gonna be beautiful. Caitlin's very used to, like, just hopping into these podcasts recordings with me and just ta- taking whatever I throw at her.

So, I very much appreciate you and I'm glad to have you here, my friend. So, let's get into it. Let's go. What's the tea, friend?

My name's Hunter Donia, industry business educator for hairstylists, but my friends just call me Hunty. Whether it be growing your clientele, making more money, or automating and streamlining your systems, in the next 20 minutes or so, you'll be hearing realistic, actionable strategies to create a beautiful career for yourself behind the chair. So if you're ready to get into it, welcome to the Modern Hairstylist podcast. I wanna start this off by handing it over to Caitlin because when me and Caitlin were planning out this episode, she had found and had seen some data research about how there has always been, across every single generation, this same debate, this same, uh, rhetoric of, "Oh, my God.

These kids nowadays, they don't wanna work. They're lazy." Whatever it may be. And so I would love to hear, uh, you break that down a little bit for us, Caitlin.

Yeah, absolutely. So I will reference, it's, uh, so I saw the TikTok that most of you have probably seen as well that references this, but I wanted to actually pull up the, like, hard, like, facts on this so that I'm not referencing a TikTok on a podcast. So I pulled up the article, uh, that talks about the reference on this, and then I also pulled up the tweet from the, I believe he's a professor in Calgary, which is in Canada, for those of you that may not know. And basically he talks about how in history, it is actually extremely common how you will hear people saying like, "Oh, the kids don't wanna work anymore.

No one wants to work anymore. Everyone's lazy." And it's something that I saw when I was really young as a Millennial. I'm sure, Hunter, you're seeing it right now too as, like, a Gen Z Millennial.

I know Gen Z is seeing it right now. Like, people just like to throw that, like, phrase around at the young generation, like, because they're lazy. But in fact, this professor, in his tweet, he actually cites, uh, all of these articles that go all the way back to, it looks like 1894 is the most, like, the latest article that he was able to cite in newspapers from, like, way back in the day, before, obviously internet or anything of that sort. But basically it's just saying, like, all of these people are saying over and over and over again in, like, different terminologies, but basically saying the same thing of, like, "No one wants to work anymore.

Why does no one wanna work anymore? It's like this, like, crazy thing. Like, it's this crazy phenomenon, but really it's not. Like, everyone just feels that way all the time."

And I thought that that was, like, really, um, similar to the kind of conversation that we're gonna have today, 'cause if you've been listening to the podcast for a while, like, we did talk about this last year a little bit too, about, like, working smarter, not h- harder and hustle culture and all of that stuff. And so this is kind of just, like, a little bit of an additive for you for this, this episode today. A followup one, I feel like, you know, now with, like, the economy changing as rapidly as it has and, like, how, how fast the world has changed, like, I feel like this debate is just becoming even more, um, amplified and, like, with the cost of living just absolutely skyrocketing, I think, uh, skyrocketing, I think that this conversation has been amplified as well just because of that. And I think that, you know, I think there is something to be said for not only ha- is this a not necessarily unique topic of conversation, as you just told us, and as these, as these studies and references show us, right?

But I do probably, I would guess that it's much more amplified in today's day and age with this younger generation because of how insane and disproportionate the cost of living actually is for people, especially young kids, like, and especially now with, like, with, like, just having more awareness of, like, what actually is going on in the world because of how connected we are as a, as a human race in today's day and age. And also, I feel like a really big, like-... feeling of dread and no hope for peoples' futures, like, it- because it's so hard to get ahead, right? Like, like, prior generations, they didn't have to work 10 times as hard to get the same things and to be able to afford the same life, right?

And people aren't getting paid more to proportionally match up with the- what the cost of living is right now, you know? And I was just, like, like, reading some things and seeing some things about how people have gone to college, and they did everything. They, they worked hard, they got an internship, they got into a job, and they did everything that their parents did and they told them to do, and everything that society tells them to do, and they're still, like, scraping by, and they don't ha- they are not able to really invest into a life that they actually love, and they're more investing just in their basic needs, right? So, I think that that also really aggravates this conversation, and I think that when we have, um, older generations looking down and not understanding that s- different experience, I think that that's when this conversation can become even more disconnected and even more aggravated.

Would you agree? Yeah, definitely. I, I actually, um, this is making me think of a, like, a meme that I've been seeing recently of, like, all of our parents are all upset at us 'cause we still don't own houses and have kids in our 30s, but like, they bought a house for, like, a chicken sandwich and three cents when they were th- their age. And it's, uh, it's just- it's very- it's very different right now.

Like, times are so different, and we aren't being compensated the way- f- in proportion with how expensive things are right now. It's just- Right. it's- it doesn't add up. Yeah, it is really crazy.

And, you know, not to get too crazy political per se, but I mean, it's just the damn truth, you know? It- it really just is, and there's no denying it. But I think that when we talk about toxic hustle culture, and I think that when that comes into the conversation, I think that what maybe possibly older generations, or anybody who kind of, uh, looks at us as a younger generation calling toxic- ca- ta- calling hustle culture toxic, I think that the misconception oftentimes is that that means not working hard for what you want. I think that, like, toxic hustle culture and working hard, or like, hustle culture and working hard are- can be very much two separate things.

And when I was asked about this at, um, Premier Orlando with Rob, what I shared was, I shared that hustle culture is toxic because it doesn't allow you to have full capacity to work on the things that you wanna work on and actually get results out of it, right? Because you can- you can be told that you just have to work your ass off, and that you have to be in the salon 24/7, seven days a week, and that's the only way that you're gonna make money, and that's the only way you're gonna build your clientele, et cetera, et cetera. Like, you could be told that and do it, and you will forever have the same results, and you will be forever exhausted. And like, what kind of life is that to live, right?

But when you- when you can be more strategic about how you approach your growth, how you approach how you make your money, right? When you, um, do the right things, and you work hard in doing the right things, then you can actually grow and get the right results by working smarter, and maybe hard, yes, but not harder, for nothing in return. Somebody could be told to post- even post on social media every single day, and somebody will post on social media every single day and get no results, right? So like, if there- if- if- if the hustle is leaning into modern- even modern day things, such as social media, because we all, like, think, well, we need to be posting on social media to grow our clientele, right?

That's like the standard now. If we're told that, like, we need to post on social media every single day, then you could post on social media every single day and get no clients from it, and no business from it, because you're not doing it in the smarter way. Furthermore, you may not d- be doing it in a c- a high quality way, right? So instead of you putting out less quantity that gets you more results, you're putting out more quantity that's getting you less results, so you are literally trading your time for dollars.

And when you can flip that on its head, and you understand the value of your time, and you are educated and you know what to- what hard work to put in, and you're- you're confident that the hard work that you put in is actually gonna get you results, that's when hard work is important, and that's when it's actually effective. But if you're just saying that you have to work 24/7, and you have to sacrifice your entire life, then that's not helpful at all. I think short-term sacrifice for long-term gain is definitely a thing. I think that putting in your time and getting your experience is so invaluable.

I don't think that anybody can just skip right to going out of beauty school and then all of a sudden making six figures in their first year. I mean, it's possible, 100%, it is possible, but I do think that there's so much value, still, in getting that experience and putting in that time, as long as the experience you're getting and the time that you're putting in is actually conducive to the success of your goals and achieving what you wanna achieve in the long term, right? Do you have any thoughts about that? I do, yeah.

So I- I will say, like, I completely agree with you, but I think it's also important too to remember that, like, talking about, like, short-term sacrifice for long-term gain, and like, putting in the work for a time, yes, it's important, but even when you're doing that, you still have to be making time for yourself, because you will burn out so freaking fast if you do that, uh, uh, coming from personal experience many a time. I'm sure for you as well. But like, you have to be able to find some kind of balance, and even if like, the scales are tipped a little bit...... on, like, the harder grind side.

But you still have to nurture yourself, 'cause it's not sustainable if you don't. Like, if you, if you're gonna, like, run yourself ragged and just be, like, on, running on empty all the time, then like, what is that even gonna give you in the end anyway? Like, you're not gonna be happy by the time that you reach the goals that you wanna reach. Yes.

100%. And also understanding, like, when to stop. Because a lot of the times, okay, somebody will decide like, "Yep, this is going to be the year that I fucking work my ass off." And it's like, okay, all power to you.

Make sure that you're taking time for yourself while also doing this hard work, right? But that's not how it can be forever. You have to, at some point, actually reap the benefits of all the hard work that you've been putting in, right? You can't have this mindset of, "Oh, I am the one who has to do everything and I'm going to continuously do everything for the rest of this career," because you will burn out and then all of it will go to shit, and none of it will matter at the end of the day.

And your life won't even matter at the end of the day because you haven't spent any time building one that you actually love, right? So then it's like, what's the actual, what's the point, dude? Like, what's the point? And I know this sounds ridiculous coming from somebody who's in, like, their mid-20s.

But like, as every single, every single year, right, every single year, every single month, every single week, I am furthermore met with the, facing the reality of, I'm only getting older and everybody else is. Right? And so we have a really short time on this freaking earth, and I wanna look back at my, at my life and I wanna be like, "Oh, I, like, spent the right amount of time loving myself and, like, feeling good in the environment and the personal life that I'm building." Right?

And so it's okay to put in that hard work. And I really love what you said, like having that, like, balance of, and maybe tipping the scales a little bit. And then once you get to a point where like you've put in the work, there is a time for you to then reap the benefits of what you've actually done, right? And that could be t- if we're talking, like, business-y strategies and things like that, like, that could be looking like actually scaling your business.

So it's like time, like okay, you've spent so much time in growing everything, and you're so consistently on top of everything, doing everything yourself. But at a certain point, it's time for you to figure out how you can systematize, how you can delegate, how you can automate as much as possible, how you can, uh, uh, remove services that no longer are profitable or make sense for you or that you don't enjoy anymore, or how you can raise your prices to make sure that you're not coming in o- like, every freaking day, uh, uh, and, and then on top of that, like five days a week, right? And then, uh, for the sixth and seventh day, you're also working at home. Like, we need to stop that at a certain point, right?

And the beautiful thing that I think is, is, ih, we have the privilege of having nowadays is having business education and understanding business fundamentals and leaning into the power that we have as an industry, and as hairstylists, beauty professionals, to be able to raise our prices and then work less by building that demand. And then furthermore, once you get to that certain place, maybe even hiring out some of your marketing efforts, so that way you don't have to be doing a lot of the marketing work by yourself, and you can make oh, that workload a lot easier for you. I mean, even leaning into a consultant such as Caitlin, who can, like, lay out plans for you and take away all of that extra, like, thought that you may not be good at, or maybe you are good at it, but you just don't have time to be thinking or focusing on it anymore. Like, at a certain point, you've earned that, right?

And if you just keep moving and going i- in this pace, what will happen is, is you will self-sabotage your next step of growth. I'm reading a book right now and it's talking all about this stuff. You will self-sabotage your next step of growth. So you'll be so anxious, so overwhelmed all the freaking time, that you're gonna look for an escape.

Or you're gonna try to feel like, you're gonna feel like what you have in front of you and what you have right now is not the right fit for you because you haven't done the work of actually streamlining it and, like, making it something sustainable by delegating, systematizing, automating, scaling, whatever it may be. And so then you'll be like, "Okay, well, now I need to ha- look at my, what my next step is. And, like, I have to start this side hustle or I have to go into this next venture, or I have to add this new service to my business, and that's all of a sudden going to fix everything and I'm gonna be so much happier." When in reality, it's like, you need to, like, look at what you've just built right in front of you and what you've worked so hard for, and figure out how you, as the CEO, don't have to be in these little daily freaking tasks all the time, and figure out how you can make it more sustainable for yourself 'Cause otherwise, you're just gonna burn out, you're gonna try this side hustle and it's not gonna get any of your attention or time that it deserves to grow because you are still being pulled back by the original thing that you have.

And then you're never gonna be able to take a step forward. I feel like right now, a lot of people, I talk to sty- so many stylists, especially independent stylists, a lot of people are like, "I wanna get into education." Or, "I want to start doing this. I want to..."

I don't know. "I wanna add this new service to my salon. I want to be more of, like, an energy healer in my salon," which is fine. Go ahead.

Follow your dreams and do what you wanna do. But make sure that that's not just, like, an escape from the thing that's actually right in front of you right now. Set up what you have, get successful with what you have right now, and then you can scale that, feel like you have your freaking life back, right? And then your energy and your white space so that way you can focus on your next venture.

But first we gotta, like, we gotta streamline what we got, we have to set boundaries with what we got, and we have to reap the hu- the benefits of all the hard work that we've put in thus far. How do you feel about that, Caitlin Yeah, I 100% agree, and I, I, so I have two things, actually. Um, I've been having similar conversations with stylists lately, almost the exact same ones. And it's always talking about, like, my what's next, like, quote unquote.

What's, what's mine, what's next? Like, first of all, I...Why do you need a what's next as soon as you've accomplished something? Like, so, uh, like, don't, don't get me wrong here.

Like, I am so for, like, growth, and doing your what's next, and, like, reaching for the stars. Like, I'm all about that. Like, that's what we are as visionaries, as stylists. Like, we are just that way.

But there's also a point where you have to be okay with being, like, coasting. There is nothing wrong with coasting for a while. You do not have to grow every single damn day, and, like, it, people, I feel like, we're so used to that, like, instant gratification of, like, life in general, that we're like, "I need it now. I need to, like, I need to grow today, and, like, I need to implement all of these things right this second, and if it's not happening today, I'm failing."

And that, to me, is just, it's so frustrating, because one, like, life isn't a race, and, like, your business isn't a race. Like, you are running a marathon. You have to pace yourself or you will burn out, period. And so, uh, tying it all kind of back together, it just, like, you, uh, it's o- I, I love that you have a what's next.

I love that you have these big ideas, but, like, knowing that it's okay to take a beat, to, like, slowly work yourself into things. Like, you don't have to do all of the things right this second, I guess is what I wanted to say. You know, I fucking... Yes.

I was muted and you guys can't see me, but I was, like, screaming "yes" with every sing- single thing that you said. I love that you said, "Why does there have to be a what's next?" Right? Mm-hmm.

Like, why can't you just... Like, what's the point? That's the, that's what I always say. What's the point?

What is the point of all of the hard work that you put in thus far, right? And if you're in that place right now, then I think that there's two things that you need to consider doing. It's either take what you have right now and streamline it, systematize it, and scale it as much as you possibly can to get your time back to be able to focus on whatever else you wanna focus on and give it its proper energy and time. Or, take a break and focus on yourself and your personal life and figure out what's next for your personal life.

Figure out, figure out how you're going to find self-fulfillment, right? And if your business isn't giving you that, or if you don't feel like you have the foundation for that yet, then yeah, you might have to put in a little bit more work right now. But once you have put in that work, once you've gotten the education, once you've had the community to push you forward and get you to that space, it's time for you to, like, reevaluate and not feel like you're trying, not feel like you want to just escape and, like, go to this next thing. It's like, let's, like, really take a step back and look at our entire life, right?

And look at, like, our wealth, and our health, and how we feel about everything that's actually going on. I know I've talked about this a little bit, but, like, I went into therapy from, for, like, my burnout situation, where I was, like, working my ass off and I was like, "Something has to change." And once I started sending, setting boundaries, and once I started to streamline my business as much as I possibly could, I took a step back and I actually was forced to look at my personal life, and I was like, "Wow. Like, I'm not happy."

And it was a huge wake-up call for me, but I was using my business as, like, a distraction, right? And once I was able to, like, put in the systems, put in the, put in the work, and also do the mental work of getting out of that hustle culture feeling, and the push away from what I was avoiding, you know, I looked at my personal life and I had made massive changes. Like, huge shifts and changes in my personal life, and I'm so much happier now, thank God. But I think that when, when we hear CEOs or influencers or older generations, or even, like, hairstylists who have been in this for a really long time and they're not open to adapting, and they see us, like, younger people coming in and just, like, trailblazing, and we hear them say, like, "Oh, my gosh."

Like, "Well, this person isn't willing to put in their time. This person, uh, needs to be doing this and taking everything and doing all the things." It's like, there is, I think there is some truth to, like I said, I think there is some truth to putting a little bit of hard work and putting in your time in the beginning, but I don't think that somebody should ever have to sacrifice their entire life. And I think that as long as the efforts that they're making are strategic, then that's all that matters at the end of the day.

If it's not strategic, if you're wasting your time, and even, let's say you're not working very hard, but you're not really pu- doing the things that you need to do to, like, get to your goals and where you wanna be. Then yeah, there's no point in that. That's, like, stupid. Like, then I'm like, "Okay, girl.

Like, we gotta get our shit together." But if you are having a sustainable work/life balance, but the efforts that you're putting into your work are actually moving you forward and you're taking, taking steps forward, and if you know how to do that, if you know how to work smarter, not harder, then I feel like you can make really big advances. And you shouldn't be listening to anybody telling you that you have to wait to get to success, or that you should be working more hours than you actually are. Right Yeah.

I mean, that's almost a conversation in itself. Like, the older generations being salty 'cause we're trailblazing. But, like, it, it's also just, like, having to remember that, like, they did live through hustle culture. Like, that was their whole career.

So it's like they're comparing their early days to, like, our early days, and they are vastly different. And that's okay. But, like, understanding that, like, we have to evolve with the times. Like, we can't just- Yep.

stay in the past. And that's kind of what this whole conversation is about, I think. 'Cause it's like, working smarter, not harder, isn't, it doesn't make you lazy and it, it doesn't make you any other way other than just being more efficient, and trying to be more efficient so that you can take care of yourself. And I love the part that you say, I just wanna, like, reference back really quick, about, like, if you're at a place where you're comfortable in working on yourself and how important that is, like, I, part of why I've been having these conversations with stylists about, like, their what's next and stuff like that, is because there's this whole conversation going on online right now about stylists being bored.

Mm. And I think that that is so, such a good idea to stop focusing so much on, like, what else can I be doing for my business, and focus on yourself. I think that that's genius, and I think more people need to actually, like, take a step back and do that for themselves, because, like, when you are in a hustle culture mentality, like, you're not taking care of your mental health, you're not taking care of your body in general. So-Yeah, and I mean, I think that it also goes hand-in-hand too, like, you also have to look at your business and be like, "Did I...

Have I set up the foundations that I need to be able to have the time and space to work on myself?" And you have to take responsibility for that, you know? You have to b- You can't... S- Like, es- If you're a business owner, like, the beauty of being a business owner is that you have choice.

You're the one who's in charge, right? So, um, actually, we have another episode about that coming out sometime soon. But, um, making sure that you have the foundations in your business set up so that way you can ba- invest back into your personal life, I think, is really, really important. But I think the moral of the story is, is like, working harder does not equal more results, um, and oftentimes, it can actually hold you back from getting the results that you're looking for because of your lack of energy, your lack of white space, the lack of, um, strategy that you're putting into things.

And because you don't have a, a... You, you only have you, you know? You don't have clones of you. You might not have employees or a team to help you.

You only have you and you can only do so much in a day. So you have to optimize that time and you also have to take care of yourself as well too. So thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of the Modern Hairstylist podcast. Caitlin, where can people, uh, work with you to grow, uh, using social media to work smarter, not harder, in their businesses if they wanted to?

Um, if you would like to work with me, I would love to work with you. I am currently... My books are open for one-on-one consulting calls. I help you to kind of strategize, work on basically whatever you need to work on in this very moment.

Like, no two people are the same with where they're at in their Instagram marketing journey. Um, I can help you with marketing in general, but Instagram is my specialty. It's where I'm the most... I'm gonna have the most knowledge for you.

So you can find me @caitlinmgranger, we'll leave this in the show notes for you, on Instagram. Or if you wanna check out my website, it is www.realhairstylist.com.

And yeah, I'd love to work with you. I'd love to connect with you. So please shoot me a DM or I'll see you over there. I can personally vouch for Caitlin.

Caitlin did, uh, some really beautiful work for us and, uh, she's 100% to be trusted and to work with if you are looking to grow using social media. So thank you so much, Caitlin, for being on here. Thank you, my friend, for listening to this episode of the Modern Hairstylist podcast. Peace out, girl scout.

Bye-bye.

End of transcript. © 2023 Hunter Donia LLC.