Why I Hate WooWoo - An Honest & Open Minded Conversation with Lisa Huff

What's the tea, friend? My name's Hunter Donia, industry business educator for hairstylists, but my friends just call me Hunty. Whether it be growing your clientele, making more money, or automating and streamlining your systems, in the next 20 minutes or so, you'll be hearing realistic, actionable strategies to create a beautiful career for yourself behind the chair. So if you're ready to get into it, welcome to the Modern Hairstylist podcast.

Hello, my friends. Oh, well, I don't know if I should say, like... We should leave this in. That would kind of almost...

Hunter. Hi, friend. Hi, Hunter. Hey, Lisa.

What's the tea? Oh, I'm excited for this. Me too. Hunter reached out to me last week.

He kinda... He almost tried to trap me and I almost fell for it, and I would've had a less productive day. Stop. Okay, okay, to be fair, I texted...

Okay, so I... Sometimes, guys, sometimes I just have a little bit of a difficult time showing up for the podcasts to, like, record in a day, particularly if I'm just not feeling super inspired. And sometimes getting on and having, like, a live conversation with somebody else is a really, really great hack for me to be able to actually, like, get it done because it's a little bit more natural and enjoyable for me to do so... Yeah.

in that way. So, I text Lisa and I just say, "Hey, are you free right now?" And then she calls me. So, it's not like...

It's... You called me, okay? Yeah. You called me and you didn't ask me what it was about first.

No. I didn't know if it was crisis. And Hunter's like, "Can we record a podcast right now?" And I'm like, "Oh, shoot, I'm not that free."

"Uh, no, I have a lot... I have, I have a big to-do list I should do, but let's do one next week." So that's why we're here. And I totally agree, and anybody listening to this, just think about what it would be like to just sit alone in a room and try to have an entire meaningful conversation with yourself that makes sense.

It is very difficult. I have a hard time doing solo podcast episodes as well. You're way better at it than me, but I don't blame you one bit when you just kind of hit that rut that you're like, "I can only say so much to myself for so long before I even know if anything's making sense anymore." For real.

And I... So, it's been two and a half years now, so, like, luckily, like, I've gotten really comfortable with it at this point, but it still is hard. Yeah. Particularly for me, it's because I'm l- only listening to myself and I'm not engaged in something in a conversation.

And so therefore, I am over-analyzing every single thing that I say. I'm, like, overthinking everything I say. And then I end up re-recording things or, like, re-saying things. I'll take the...

I'll take, like, 10 takes. Literally, guys. Mm-hmm. Like, I will take 10 takes of the first, like, five minutes of a podcast episode before I finally feel like, okay, I feel solidified in exactly, like, how, how I wanna say it, what I wanna say, and then I can go into a groove from there.

But it's really hard sometimes. Very much so. Yeah. So, today, we're gonna talk about woo.

Yeah. Which is something that I publicly talk about my love of woo. I think Hunter loves w- woo more than he realizes he loves it. But he'll always say that he's not super woo-woo, and he's like, "I think I might wanna share that with people, but I don't want...

I don't wanna get, like, shunned," because the woo movement is real right now. Yeah. And he... I'm like, you're...

I love Hunter's brain. The way that you think about things brings me clarity all the time. I'm like, "There is a rhyme and a reason, I'm sure, to your thoughts and your processes. I would love to hear them.

You will probably convince me." And then as you shared some of them with me, I'm like, "I agree with every single thing you're saying." But I also wrote some notes, which we didn't go over my notes, uh, on reasons why I still despite, even what you said, really, really, really love woo. So then we'll see if you agree or disagree with those things even as well.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to the conversation, and it kinda came up, came up as an idea for a podcast episode because I... In my, like, community and just, like, in conversations and even within my own team, because my team is woo-woo themselves. Like, all their personalities and what they're interested in, they're very woo. We just, like, always joke around about how I'm so, like, woo adjacent and, like, I'm, like, not into it.

And I always just kind of, like, laugh it off, but I had, like, a moment recently where I had to... where I really took a step back and I was like, "I think it's important for me to, like, explain why I may seem dismissive of the concept," because it's not just because I think it's bullshit and I'm just like, "It's bullshit and I'm not gonna waste my time on that." It's l- I do have, like, legitimate reasons for it, but then I also do... And you, you and other people in my life have made me kind of realize, like, "Oh, like, I do kind of, like, dip my toes in, but in, like, ways that feel really good for me."

For sure. And so, in today's episode, I guess, like, and in this conversation that you and I have, like, what I would like to do is, is like explain the reasons why I tend to have a little bit of a, I don't know, weird feeling around those things and why I kind of like to distance my way, uh, my- myself from those things. Um, but then also, like, how I believe it can actually be really good. And I wanna disclaim, like, just for anybody listening to this, that, like, this is just, like, my own personal experience and, like, my own core values and, like, how I show up in my business and how I show up in my own life.

And, um, I believe that, like, whatever it takes for anybody to achieve, like, happiness and clarity, like, in their life, like, you pop off and you go ahead and do that. But I think, like, where the issue can... where the issue lies is how far we take some of those things, and also, like, how other people, like, use those things and then exploit others to... for their own benefit.

Mm-hmm. So, um, we'll dive deep into all of that stuff. Should we preface with what we even mean when we say woo? Well, yeah.

Because I think that alone is... Some people think it's, like, religious. Some people think it's manifestation. Some people have no idea what we're even talking about.

Some people think it's meditation. Some people think it's yoga. Some people think it's, like, a hippie head shop. Like, there's so many different thoughts of, like, wh- is it psychic mediums?

Like, what are you even talking about when you say woo? So, what is your perception when you say woo, and what you're even talking about and referring to? Yeah, so I feel like...It's interesting you're asking me this because when I was, like, writing out my notes for this, particularly about, like, the things, the- the spaces in which I do find usefulness for myself within this category, I was like, I was like, "Is this even considered woo," right?

Like- Mm-hmm. and I think, I think for everybody's, I don't know, field of study within this concept, it's gonna be different definition for everybody within their own experience- Totally. and what they've been exposed to, what they've learned, et cetera, et cetera. For me, it's like, it can go from, I don't know, like, ancient teachings of, like, older civilizations and, like, what they believed and what they practice and, like, monks and Buddhists and all that stuff, right?

I feel like a lot of- Mm-hmm. those concepts have influenced, and this might be very controversial for me to say this, but this is just my tea- Mm-hmm. Let's do it. like, have influenced, like, the more, like, whitewashed, like, version of w- the modern woo that we see today.

And I think it's really important to even talk about if there's some cultural appropriation around that, and maybe that's why you feel, you know, a- an- It could be. adverse, maybe. Who knows? It's a- it's- it's a part of it.

It's a part of it for sure. Mm-hmm. But then I also, like, and then there's the other side of it as well, which is, like, the crystals and the manifestation and, like, how energy moves and then, like, the universe and then the stars aligning, right? And, like, they're, like that, that's, like, what I'm saying is, like, it's difficult for me to really pinpoint exactly what it is.

I guess I could definitely say what it's not. Like, for me, like, what is not woo is just, like, tangible, literal, factual, data-driven things. Fair. Or, like, scientifically backed and proven things, like, physical things that are, you can just, like, make real.

As we get into it, though, you will find that there are some scientifically backed things. Yes. Yes. And you'll own those.

And I will bring that up later. But there's a lot that aren't. Yes. Yes.

Even if someone who's trying to sell you a $10,000 course is one of them. Yeah. So that's, like, how I would pers- uh, that's, like, my own, like, perceived notion of, like, what the general woo umbrella kind of includes if, if I'm, i- i- if I'm trying my best, I guess. But what's- Mm-hmm.

What is it in your definition? Yeah. So I would just say, and this is really interesting to me because I chose, as my identity, to say, "I'm into woo," in, like, very formative years of my life. So, like, I feel like my prefrontal cortex was developing when I was getting into these things.

So I don't know how many of these things would have happened on their own as I became an adult and had a clearer outlook on the world, like, whether I had woo to put myself into the category or if that was just happening simultaneously. So to me, woo, it's so weird to talk about, I would just say is, like, energy. It's an exchange- Mm-hmm. of energy.

It's the things that you can't put words to. Like, I've read a lot of woo books, and it's like ar- who, who am I? Am I, is, this is my body, so that wouldn't be me. Yeah.

This is my brain. That wouldn't be me. I can observe my brain. So, like, consciousness is its own thing.

So I, that's, like, kinda my perspective is, like, energy, consciousness, um, how energy works inside of the universe and how something as small as our thought, maybe, even if I can't right now sit down and scientifically prove it, h- i- whether it's coincidental or not or again then you can get really spiritual with it, I don't know, you know, everybody's faith, and I don't think that that... I don't wanna say isn't relevant in this, but, like, I think of it as all-encompassing, but to me it's a very spiritual element too. And I have my own, like, religious traumas and things that I've been to through that, like, sometimes these, like, all-encompassing things, for me it is a lot more of just, like, faith and spirituality, but it feels safer and more comfortable for me personally. Right.

So I would call it energy, but I agree. Everything we've talked about, meditation I guess falls under it. Crystals I guess falls under it. But then you can even say does astrology fall under it?

Like, it's- Right. it's so big. But for me personally, my spiritual awakening, I'll call it, like, I just vividly remember a period in time when I really got into reading these things, researching these things, and coming into my own, like, human. Um, it was, like, law of attraction, mindset, um, the energy that you put out is what comes back into you, and, like, that really shaped my life.

When I noticed that, started taking it serious, and then my life drastically changed after that. So, that's mine. So it's funny you bring up, uh, you touched on how, like, who am I? I literally am audibling a book right now.

I think it's called, I think it's called The Untethered Soul. I can't go into my phone right now 'cause I'm using it as a second camera, but I think that's what it's called, and I have no idea who it's by off the top of my head. But it was explaining that, and that, it was, like, the first chapter, and they explain it in a really great way because you, i- it, like, walks you through, like, understanding and, like, really noticing how you have, like, these thought patterns and noticing, like, how you are, like, the observer of everything that's happening in the world and, like, but who is the observer? Like, who actually are you?

And so that does make me feel like, right, like, the, like, having consciousness or, like, having a soul, right, like, that, you know, that's, like, kind of like an unknown thing. Like, there's no, like, proven actual science to that. And in that case, go ahead. Does that bother you, you being someone that wants, like, do you sit and dwell on those things?

Or you're just like the- No. I know the research isn't there, so it doesn't even, like, stay in my brain? For me, it's just, like, it's not even, like, worth spending my energy trying to figure out. 'Cause you're not gonna s- crack the code.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Okay.

Like it's just like there's no end to it, so it's like I might as well just not even worry about it or think about it too much, you know? But I did find, find the explanation to be super interesting and a little bit freeing too, you know? Like, how you are, like, this soul and, like, you get to, like, make the dec- like, decisions about how you live this life and all of that stuff. I thought it was fascinating.

But yeah. Your definition of woo makes sense. And for me, like, I don't know. I just...

I've never said this publicly, I don't think, because I just get nervous about, like, you know, stigmas and things like that. But I do also think, like, I have a very slight touch of autism because my dad probably definitely does, and my older brother does as well. And because of that, I also just have a really difficult time with, like, anything that isn't super provable or tangible. And that's why I'm so strategic, and that's why I think about things in such, like, a in, like, a direct perspective sometimes I feel like.

And that also gives me a little bit of a block when it comes to this stuff as well, I feel like. But it's a gift in its own. Totally. And I, but I, I love that you just wanna even just talk about it 'cause...

And I think for somebody like me where... Hunter, I will hear you talk sometimes and the way your analytical brain works is just truly, like, I have n- th- there are no things in my brain firing the way that they fire in your brain. So that's your own little touch. I have my own little touch, and I almost double down and just find myself leaning into and drawn to more of the less tangible...

How can you even explain that? I don't know. That's just what my, what I'm drawn to. That's what interests me.

That's what, what, you know, I just feel pulled towards. So, I just think we're gonna have a really good conversation about one side to the other. So why don't we start, I know you have some bullet points and I really wanna get into it, of the reasons specifically that you have that kind of dawned on you where you're like, "This is worth saying out loud and sharing." And I think they absolutely are 'cause when you shared them with me, they're very legitimate and valuable.

Yeah, so I guess like my first overall concern is just how, especially right now, like with how accessible digital marketing is, I think, like, it can very much easily prey on people in more desperate circumstances or situations. Like, I see a lot of people who have taken these concepts and then ended up spend, like charging a shit ton of money for, like, whatever program or course or coaching or whatever it may be, a retreat, whatever it may be, like, surrounding these concepts. And I think that there are people who are... I mean, especially right now.

I mean, I don't, I don't think that there's ever been a time where us as humans have been more stressed out and in very desperate situations, particularly in our minds. And, you know, when you're in that type of situation, you are looking for any solution. Like, you are looking for any type of help to, like, get out of it, you know, and, like, to get to another side of it. And I think that it's very easy for, to take, like, traditional, like, psychology and marketing concepts and, like, take something that isn't actually tangible and then, like, manipulate people into spending ten thousands of do-, like, thousands of dollars and then, like, saying, like, "Oh, if you join my program, then your life is gonna be perfect.

And you are going to manifest your, I don't know, your bad relationship away-" Mm-hmm. "... or your hatred of yourself away," et cetera, et cetera. Like, whatever it may be.

Or, "Your money problems away." I mean, obviously that's, like, a really manipulative thing, you know- Mm-hmm. to, like, say, to even think or say that or advertise that. And so I just think that becomes very problematic and the capitalization of it all and, like, the exploitation of it all, like, really turns me off, which makes me want to separate myself from it as much as I possibly can.

Fair. You know? Yeah. Yeah, 'cause you don't ever want a message that feels like it's coming across as that, even if...

I mean, I know you just held a retreat in Savannah where they do lots of what from an aesthetic would look like really woo things. You don't wanna be like, "Come here and everything will change your life." I think the, this was another thing I said to you, of one of my biggest struggles with it is the exploitation. Absolutely, that's a fantastic point.

I think we can all relate to that and think of, you know, things that we've, we've seen that happen before and how quickly, you know, toxic and destructive that can be. What's also trippy and what I think attracts people to creating content like that is the safeguard of like, "Well, if it doesn't work, then, like, you didn't do it right. Like, you didn't use your brain right." Because whatever you think is what becomes real.

And I was saying this to Hunter when I was also going through my spiritual awakening, my prefrontal cortex was, uh, w- uh, you know, forming. Whatever was happening, I was, like, really into this stuff. I was really researching. I was really just, like, figuring out who I am, and I was, like, fully drinking the Kool-Aid.

And I was like, "Every thought I've ever thought has brought me to where I am today. My thoughts right now are gonna dictate my future." And, like, that's, that's the fact. And I was really, like, retaining that and feeling, like, 100% truth about that.

What my struggle is, and I can't tell you what the right or wrong answer is 'cause there are parts of this that I do still love, but I vividly remember during that period of time, my sister's very close friend, so we were all like family friends at the time, her one-year-old son was diagnosed with brain cancer. And I just remember, like, it was the first situation in my life where, like, I was a, my kids were young. Bennett was about the same age as him at the time. And I just remember thinking, like, it's just those, like, hits of mortality when you're just like, "Whoa."

Like, life is really intense and real. And I remember coming into this, like, spiritual..... trying to find this like understanding of where I fall on that. And I think people from any religion will struggle with things like this.

Why would God ever do that? Like, you know, this is just a human experience. But that's when I really was like, okay, toxic positivity can be really real. And like someone fucking explain to me how a one-year-old could think his way into having brain cancer.

Like, clearly not every single thing is formed from that. Y- right. But, uh, but then, like, like, something that I have written down for, like, the tangibles of it, right, is in a way in which you... 'Cause I'm, I'm always very careful, like, in my business coaching about this, or even when I'm supporting a friend about this, of, like, toxic positivity or gaslighting somebody or trying to, like, look at the bright side.

Because I've done grief training, like, in which you, uh, learn how to support other people through grief or hard times, and it's really imp- it's really important. And like most, like, studies show that it's actually best for you to just be there and acknowledge the fact that it sucks versus say, like, "Oh, but here's the bright side of things," or, "But at least," right? Like, a lot of people will say, like, "Oh, but at least they're going to heaven," or something like that, right? But in actuality, like, that does not...

That's s- a lot of the time, that doesn't really help people. Everybody has different preferences and everybody has different experiences for like what would help them or not, right? But the majority of the time, it's not very helpful. What's helpful is, like, validating somebody in how they feel and, like, comforting them and, like, making that person a real person, whoever passed away, specifically if we're talking about grief.

But on the flip side of that, I do believe, like, because this is tangible, because this is real, like this, because like this is inarguable, like, this is factual, that, like, whatever experiences happen in life are going to put you into your next phase of life, are going to set you up for your next phase of life, right? And there always will be good and bad that comes out of those experiences, right? And just because there is good that may come out of it doesn't mean that there's not gonna be any bad and vice versa, right? So, I think that, like, to, just for people to be able to take back, like, their power and to be able to at least make the most out of a situation, I think it's important to acknowledge, like, two things can be true.

Like that this really fucking sucks, but also maybe this is preparing me for the future and it's putting me where I'm supposed to be. And so it's like, yes, like everything in the u- like everything in the universe, everything, every experience that you have is like happening for a reason possibly, because it literally is going to happen for a reason. Like, there is gonna be something that happens after this, right? Um, and that's gonna put you in that whatever's next in some sort of circumstance, in either a better way or a worse way, whatever it may be.

But I don't know if I'm explaining what I'm trying to explain. I know. It's so trippy to talk about all this 'cause it's just even, like, th- it's so not tangible that how do you even put it into words? But I think that going back to the exploitation point and the manipulation and things like that, you will find when, you know, we can all...

I'm sure there's specific people popping up in everybody's minds. You don't need to say anybody, any names or anything like that. But y- when th- things go bad, like, they're never sharing any of the bad things. Right.

Because it's like, "Well, wouldn't you manifest your way out of that?" You know? And so- Right. that's where it gets very trippy and it gets weir- really, really weird to capitalize on it.

And I fully, 100% relate to you in that by saying, like, "All of your dreams are gonna come true, all of your problems are gonna be solved, all of this," because, one, that's not life. And, like, what would even be the point if that was the case? But you just never hear ownership of that. And I think that's also really w- why people can choose to choo- get that niche, like, to go into that niche, because if it doesn't work out, then you didn't journal properly, you didn't whatever, you know?

Yeah. It's just... It's icky. That is icky.

I, uh, you know, I had, uh, bec- I'm so, like, because I'm so diligent about separating myself from that and even being a part of it, like, at all, is, uh... Particularly when it comes to my brand, right? Because I, I really take my voice seriously. Like, I, it's become really real for me that, like, s- when I say something, like, people will actually listen to it and, like, people will actually take action on it.

Like, that is really- And there'll be a ripple effect in their life and other people's lives because of it. That's- Exactly. a big responsibility. Yeah.

100%. And like, I take that super fucking seriously. Mm-hmm. And so, I had a very large influencer within our industry, like huge, like very big, who is very fucking woo-woo, like intensely woo-woo, uh, reach out and, uh, ask to be on the podcast and, like, collaborate one way or another, and I just, like, ended up having to say no.

And I, like, told her why, and she, like, tried to, like, tell me, like, all the reasons why, like, it probably would be fine and, like, you know, whatever may be, and I was just like, "I can't do it." Like, and it- Yeah. and, and it's that. And it...

Although, you know, that would be great opportunity for me, great exposure for me, it just, like, like you said, like, I don't want anybody to ever feel like, oh, well, I'm not making the money that I'm n- that I wanna make because I'm just not, like, thinking my way or manifesting hard enough or dreaming big enough for myself or something like that. But can I say my version of woo, Hunter? And I remember when that situation happened. I'm so proud of you for that.

But my version of woo, like is that was like kinda woo of you because your intuition spoke- Yeah. to you so clearly and so loudly and like that's what woo means to me, not just tag along with the next person who's, like, posting sunshine and rainbows, but, like, you had an internal gut reaction of like, "This isn't-" Absolutely. "... the right thing to do, even if it seems like it could be a lot of opportunities."

Like that to me is a spiritual experience personally. I, I, and I have this, that, that down as one thing that I, that I don't know if there necessarily is much, uh, tangible explanation for it, I guess, that I will say, like, my intuition and my gut have always been a thing that I found to be powerful- Yeah. and like something that sometimes I don't follow it and I really regret not following it. Or like, I do follow it and it was, like, a fantastic decision, right?

Yeah. Um, I, I, and my, even my, uh, my EA Ashley, she was like, "You say that you're not woo, but Hunter, like, I hear you talk and I see how you make decisions and, like, you are a very intuitive person." And I was like, "Honestly, like..."That's true.

Like, I feel like that is a w- some woo that I can get on board with. Totally. And can I touch on this? Because I also feel like I found that my intuition, and I found that through this, like, experience, I'm telling you.

And again, could I have gotten really involved with a church and had the exact same thing happen, and that was just what I was seeking out, was something- Mm-hmm. towards the intangible? Maybe. Could it have been any other direction?

Probably. But for me, that intuition was like, I was never even... I never even knew that that was like a thing. And I, the way that I was raised, it...

And again, my parents were never trying to do anything wrong, but even still, when I'm around my family, high vibration conversations, now that I'm looking at it, literally never took place. Yeah. And so for me, discovering this was just like, I literally never thought about this. I liter- used to wake up and think like, "What's the next problem?

What's the next struggle?" Right. "This is gonna go wrong. The president is gonna ruin everybody's life."

Yeah. "The weather's gonna, you know, this bad thing's gonna happen. This asshole's gonna cut me off in traffic." Th- like, that was the only thing that I think my brain was conditioned to do.

I feel like I'm being a little bit harsh on my parents, 'cause I'm sure it's not quite that b- strong, but once I read, for me it was The Secret, which is really cheesy, but that's what it was for me. Once I read that, and I just realized, like, when you think like that all the time, no shit, you're gonna be upset all the time. Right. You're gonna be angry all the time.

You're not gonna make any positive impact on the world or other people's lives, 'cause all you're looking for is problems. And I'm assuming you weren't raised in a similar way, just from the conversations we've had as we've become friends, that for me, and I think for other people who didn't have that, like, conditioning from a young age, it was what it took to really, like, shake that and break that completely, or else I would've just continued with that thought process, and I wouldn't have created anything of substance, because my whole life would've been about the next complaint, the next complaint, the next complaint. Yeah. And, you know, I think that's where it go- comes back to, it's like whatever it's gonna take for you to get there, fantastic.

Yeah. 'Cause for me, like my translation of that, and what I would like to practice more often, is just the reali- like, just be- like the awareness of the primal instincts that you have to always be focusing on the negative. Survival, yeah. You know?

Like, and that's how, that's where this is like scientifically, like, it makes sense for me, you know? It's like- Mm-hmm. It's like this is our primal instincts. Like, this is exactly what our brain wants to do all the time.

But then having the awareness that like, hey, you kind of do have, like, at least the option to try to focus on other things, or to look in a different direction, uh, and, and wake up, and not have that same narrative or story all the time. And, um, you know, I, again, like however you get there, like, fucking fantastic for you, dude. Like, you unlocked- Woo-hoo. the code.

Like, that's fantastic, you know? Yeah. Now let me ask you this, right? Because I've noticed that y- uh, I've noticed multiple times w- when speaking with you, and just seeing how you move, that I think you create really strong boundaries for yourself around, like, negative energy and things like that.

Do you find it to still, like, although you're, you have learned these concepts and they've been really helpful for you, like, do you find that you still have, like, moments of vulnerability? Or do you find... Like, like, tell me, like, like- Completely. Tell me, like, tell me about that.

Like, tell me about that. Like, how do you make it so... Like, do you have r- like, moments of fucking real life where it's just like, like not everything is fucking, like, this crystal's not gonna heal me right now? Like, I don't know.

Like, tell me what to feel. I mean, you know that. You're, are you asking me that for people to hear, or are- I'm asking you for people. I'm asking you for people.

Okay. Abso-fucking-lutely. Again, we are humans. That is instinct.

I will also say, the people that are closest to me I think get to see the worst, which is probably true for everyone, version. Like, my husband would be like, "You are not the most positive person that I know," because he's my safest person. He's the person that hears my complaints. He th- You know?

So like, but it's also, you know, you think of this, like, sphere of, of relationships and things with humans. Once you're not in my, like, super inner, I get very protective against complaint. Right. Like, if you, if, like, Hunter, if you call me, it does not bother me- Yeah.

because, uh, like, if, if, uh, people close in my life are com- like, having struggles, then that's one thing. But when there's people, I don't know how to explain it, that are not in that really close sphere, I am like, keep a ten foot pole between me and that, because I just don't li- I, I think it is, like, triggering for me, 'cause I see, especially if they're complaining about things that, like, other people in my life complain about that I've chosen to distance from, that seem very useless and a waste of time and energy. So absolutely. But I also put this for a reason why I do really like Woo, is for me, it pulls me out of a rut pretty quickly.

Right. Now, let me also just say, I have empathy for people who are actually struggling with depression, anxiety. I'm not diagnosed with any of those things. But, like, I don't stay down for very long, because- Right.

Like, I stay down for a little bit, but it's going back to, and for me, this is just what I'm drawn to, it's you stay in this, you're gonna keep bringing more of this. And so, that's like that constant reminder. Um, and, like, uh, gratitude is a huge thing for me. Like, I really just, for me personally, that's like the answer to getting out of any low point.

And I know that doesn't do the trick for everybody. Some people have chemical imbalances, where a little bit of gratitude isn't gonna do it. But that's just, like, that's why I love Woo, is 'cause it's always there, even when shit is getting really hard. It's like I can tap back into my own, like, quiet space and whatever, and I can quickly pull myself out of it by just knowing my base level is still high vibe, or whatever you wanna call it.

Right. And this is where it's like, I totally support this. Like, whatever tools you need to like, you know, be able to do that, is like- Yeah. so beautiful.

Like, that's fucking fantastic. Like, that's so awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

But now on the flip side, here's my next bullet point. Okay, tell me. So, my next bullet point is, I feel like, I mean, and this kind of goes into...... like, a little bit of what we already talked about.

But I feel like it can distract from uncomfortable action that needs to be taken, right? So like, instead of doing the thing that you know you have to do, you'll distract yourself from it by finding the easiest solution, which is another primal instinct. Like- Mm-hmm. we, as humans, want to exert the least amount of energy possible in order to get, like, the highest impact in return.

And so, we will... and we don't want to be uncomfortable. Like, naturally, like, we are protecting ourselves from discomfort as much as we possibly can. And so it may be more comfortable to lean into some of the woo concepts versus, like...

And it might be even more inspiring and shiny too. Mm-hmm. Versus, you know, just fucking showing up and posting on social media like you're supposed to. Like, like the things that you, like, know are actually going to fucking make a difference.

You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So what are your thoughts about that? Yeah.

I- I just even that last sentence gave me a whole different kinda tangent than I was even gonna go on. Okay. So, I absolutely think that people use it as a crutch. Yeah.

Um, distraction, yes, next shiny thing, yes. But even once you've been in this space for a while, a lot of people will use it as a crutch when they don't wanna take action. Right. They'll just continue to heal, and heal, and heal, and heal, and heal, which let me say, I think that you will...

It's li- almost like the, the one goes, like, you do some work and then it, you gotta find some healing, and then you do some work, and then you gotta find some healing. But at a certain point, you can only heal so far until there needs to be action to accompany along with it. Right. And then at the end, you said that part...

Oh, I w- I had something that came to me right at the end of that, and I lost it. Say what you said again, and I'll see if it comes back to me. Um, I believe I said post on social media 'cause you know that that's what's gonna... Okay.

Yes, that was it, but I also, let me say this, am so intuitive that I... This might be a hot take. But I also don't wanna coach to and don't agree that someone should do things that they fucking hate doing. Yeah.

Like, if that's even your sign to, like, choose an entire career, different career path, but me personally, I'm not gonna do things that I hate doing. I'm not. Right. But I'm gonna continue to figure out what my new goal or end point needs to be, so that I love the action that I am taking.

Mm-hmm. I also think I naturally love the journey more than some people. So, I kinda disagree because I'm like, I'm not gonna keep endlessly coaching if someone just posts on social media. If that feels inauthentic and disgusting to you, you could look back at, you know, five years later and realize maybe you were one of those people sharing something that was, you know, not really relev- like, not true to you.

Mm-hmm. So, again, I, I will use that analogy of, like, the cars on the highway of like, healing, action, healing, action, and I also just personally won't coach someone to do something that they absolutely hate doing. Okay. They need to dig more to why they hate it.

Super fascinating. And I, I love that you said that you are able to look at the goal and that goal intuitively feels really good for you, so then therefore, you'll fall in love with the journey that's gonna bring you there, right? Yes. Like, th- I think that that's, like, a really great way to explain your perspective and your own personal experience around this topic.

Mm-hmm. Like, but for me, like, otherwise, you know, like, a simple example for me right now 'cause I'm, like, really into my fitness and my, my health right now. Love that. Like, a simple exampl- example for me is like, you know, I really fucking hate lifting.

Like, I- Do you even hate it, like, four or five sets in? 'Cause I hate it until I get, like, I hit that threshold where, one, the Red Bull kicks in- ... and then the endorphins start, and then I really, really, really love it. I hate it the entire way through, dude.

Okay, fair. I hate, I hate having to get up to do it. I hate it the entire way through. I hate it at the end.

I'm like, "I'm so annoyed that I had to do this today." All the above- Mm-hmm. I could run my little fucking ass off. I could run forever and every day, and I have been running every day.

Mm-hmm. And it is just, it makes me so happy, but... And like, I'm so excited to get up in the morning to run, right? Mm-hmm.

But, like, the ne- but, like, I know for my goals that I want, I have to do something that I fucking hate. Yeah. It just is what it is, you know? Like, and so, like, that's where it's just, like, the, the balance of this ko- of this topic and your perspective- Mm-hmm.

and, and that, right? It's just a little bit of a perplexing thing for me, I guess you could say. It's like, it's like, okay, so then, like, at what point do you choose a different goal just 'cause you hate one part of the journey, right? Totally.

And I think that's where you just need to think more big picture, is this worth it, and you know, yeah. And then even that's intu- and maybe, and then maybe that's even, that's where the intuition comes in- Yup. is when you think bigger picture. Yeah.

And you think, and you, like, go above all of that, and you say like- Mm-hmm. "Okay, this part of this sucks," and it's like, and it's what I w- need to be able to get to what I want, right? Mm-hmm. But then, intuitively overall, right?

Does- Mm-hmm. doing the things to meet that goal feel good, although the actual things suck, right? Absolutely agree. And I'm even just thinking...

Okay, so one, I would say, just 'cause I am somebody who loves doing things that feel good, which I know discomfort is where growth comes from. Like, I do know that, but I also kinda love being uncomfortable. Yeah. Um, but like, for example, I'm...

So if I were you and I absolutely hated weightlifting to the point where I couldn't even get... Like, I would almost try to trick myself into liking it. Right. That's the way my weird brain works.

Or I would find something that gets the job done that I do like more, you know? Right. So a class or something. That's my take.

But like, for example, I'm just trying to think of what I've done so far today that I don't love doing. I don't love feeding my dogs. I don't love making Bennett breakfast this morning, but like, you have to do those things. I don't know.

I would just... I'm just somebody who really f- tries to find what feels good, but- Yeah, and I think- ... sometimes that maybe could be not helpful too. I think you touched on gratitude a little bit at some point in this conversation, and I think, you know, gratitude for the fact that you are able to get up and feed the dog, that you have a dog to feed.

Yeah. You know? That you are able to afford the food to be able to feed the dog, right? So like, I'm grateful that I'm able-bodied enough to be able to get out of bed and be able to lift a weight, you know?

Absolutely. And what's been really helpful for me personally, just with all of this, and maybe this is better for our next podcast episode, but-For me, it's just been, like, although... And this goes back to, you know, who am I as, like, the soul and as, like, the decider of what happens next in my body and, like, what choices I make, right? Like, although, like, I may feel like not doing something, like, it's still...

I still have the choice. You know? Like, I can still do something in spite of it being hard or me not feeling like doing it. I have one more thing and I wanna make sure that you talk about all the things you wanna talk about too.

But I have one more thing that irks me, particularly right now. Let's go. Every time it comes up, it just kinda pisses me off a little bit. And I really do need to disclaim here before I say this because I have students and close students that I do personal coaching with that I absolutely fucking love who are getting into this, and I completely respect their decision and I will root you on every step of the way.

That is the type of coach I am. Like, I will give you my advice, but if you decide that you wanna do something different, then I will help you in any way I can to do whatever it is that is different from what I suggested you do. You know? Like, so for example, if you were to s- ask me whether you should incorporate Reiki healing into your behind-the-chair services, I would say, "Fuck, no."

That's gonna be a good clip. But... But if you choose to do it, I will do everything in my power to help you make that successful. You know what I mean?

Okay. So- Elaborate on the, "Fuck no," please. So here's my fucking tea with this, all right? And maybe this goes back to it can be an easy distraction from just the sh- uncomfortable shit that you probably need to do to make it so you are solving a problem or achieving a goal.

Right? I find a lot of people get into adding woo woo stuff into their business because of wanting to make money in a different way, to take less labor on their body, right? Um, and also, just to bring their hobbies and passions into what they're doing behind the chair, which that by itself is okay. Right?

Totally. But for me, I think it's very healthy to separate you and your personal life from your business, and that's just, like, been a really important thing for me, like, to actually develop my personal life and be happy outside of my business, and then look at my business as something that allows me to fully fuel my personal development and my happiness. You know? And so, although my...

I have a strong why behind what I'm doing, and I absolutely... I'm so grateful and I make a huge impact doing it and, like, I wanna keep fucking doing it, and it does bring me fulfillment, does not mean that what it... In order for me to be able to continue do that, to do that, in or- in order for it to then fuel my personal goals does not mean that I should... It's not, it's not always the best thing for me to bring in my personal life into business.

You know? Yeah. Or like my passions and everything like that. Like, it's just not the strategic decision.

Like, I fucking love skiing. If I made a s- uh, podcast episode about skiing for hairstylists, do you think anybody would fucking care? No. So that would not make me money.

No. Or maybe some people. But- But so, like, like, so when it comes to, like, you wanna bring your passions in, that's great. It just...

You're creating an uphill battle for yourself because it is ten times harder to market. Anything that y- is... Anything that the general public is not already problem-aware of or solution-aware of is going to be so much harder for you to make money off of, particularly if you're building a business from the ground up, because people look at a hair salon and they think hair fucking services. Mm-hmm.

Like, the traditional stuff. Right? And so, when we choose, like, niches and specialties and different services that are really, like, a, a very extensive concept to explain and people... It's not h- low-hanging fruit, basically.

You're creating, like, a really, really difficult climb for yourself, and I think, like, if you're in a position where you aren't... You don't already have a strong foundation and that's really what you want, like, and that's what the goal actually is, and you're looking at the incorporating woo woo or whatever it may be as the solution, right? Then I think that that's something that I would strongly not recommend. So- And just keep that separate fr- in your own personal life.

Let that be something that you enjoy doing. That's, like, sacred to you and that you fucking love. And then, like- Yeah, I try really hard. I don't know.

It's just, it's just, like, I... Every single time I have somebody who asks me and says, "I want to dive deep into this niche, into this specialty of sorts," and it's not just woo. I mean, there's so many different specialties in the- Something that's not hair-related at all, you would say? Um, uh, or, yeah.

Or even, like, uh, sometimes, like, scalp stuff even sometimes. Okay. It just kinda depends. If it's just not the low-hanging fruit, it's just gonna be ten times harder for you to build a business off of it.

You know? So... And especially if you, if you're not good at marketing. If you, if you don't have a natural knack for marketing and you don't know how to explain that and if you don't know how to bridge that problem to your solutions and make people even aware that this even exists, and then I will further go on to say, unfortunately, also, like, w- I will say in a lot of business circumstances, I will say your location should not hold you back and does not matter that much, in this circumstance, particularly if we're talking about woo, your location- For sure.

will fucking matter. As, like- Mm-hmm. it will hinder you from being successful and i- and building a business off of solely that concept. So tell me your thoughts.

I have thoughts. Because I think that you have opposite thoughts. And I'm really looking forward to hearing them. Mm-hmm.

You know? Like, I'm j- I'm, I'm open-minded to this situation, but I do feel it's like...I'm just, I just don't want people to put their eggs in that basket until they have a strong foundation of, like, just steady, easy business. Yep.

You know? Yeah, and you definitely don't wanna, you know, coach to that and then realize five years, two years later, it's not gonna take long, they now hate that thing that used to be their passion. It's not working for their business. It's r- you know, hindered their reputation, even that they already built just when it came to their hair services.

So, that's fair. I respect everything you say. Can I give you my take on that? Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it.

Okay. So, what I think of when I think of that is if it's not woo, it may eventually be something else. I think the people who are drawn to that are the people that are on the cusp of wanting to do something other than being fully behind the chair. And I want you to think in the way as if what if when you were growing your behind the chair business and your idea to start coaching and educating came up, somebody said, "Absolutely do not do that.

That will hinder your growth." Which you, again, your analytical brain was very aware that you were building something entirely new and you were letting something slowly start to diminish. But the intuitive part of me is like if someone is having that tug on them, just 'cause I know my tug made no sense at the time, Hunter, when I brought it. Like, I was just like, okay, I'm doing hair.

I'm making good money. My business is busy, but now I'm, like, bored doing highlights and I just wanna keep talking with hairstylists every day. Like, that was my truth. And had I not have ...

And really if anybody looked at the business I was gonna bring to life, I mean, they probably would've said that doesn't really add up and make any sense to how to do that. So, I just have the empathy on the side of I think there's something deeper when those things start to come up. And maybe that's when they really need to stop and ask themselves is the work it takes to be a successful hairstylist and run an independent business what you thought it was gonna be? Is that exciting for you?

Or are you looking for something entirely new? And for me, uh, I, my, the creative process is almost like part of spirituality for me, and the way my life runs is, like, once s- things are going for a certain time, my intuition starts to feel, I always call it, like, itchy. There's something that's coming, and I can relate to the stylist that's thinking, oh, let me add this thing in 'cause they're just a little itchy un- and uncomfortable and a little bit bored. And I know what you're saying is, like, push through the boredom, but what I'm saying is that would maybe slowly kill me inside.

Yeah. I, I completely respect everything you say. Like, and so I actually, I actually, uh, at Modern Stylist Retreat, the last day we just did, like, live Q&A. Like, I just sat there and everybody, we just all had great conversations and people just asked me questions.

And some, and multiple times nonstop people were asking me like, "I wanna add this to my business. I wanna add this to my business. I wanna add this to my business. I wanna add this to my business."

And I had just gotten back from, and I know I've been raving, I talk about this in every podcast episode that I have, so sorry, guys. I talk, I talked about this anytime I talk about business now 'cause it was just so fucking insane. But I went to bef- shortly before that, I went to business conference in Vegas where I was sitting next to these, like, tens of millions of dollars business owners, and I was learning from these people who had, like, $250 million a year business, businesses. It was just the most insane experience of my business life probably.

Um, and I was just such a small fish in the room, and I learned a lot from it. And it was so interesting because he was taking Q&A from the audience, and these are tens of millions of dollar business owners, like, people who have really strong foundations for their business, right? Like, they've already fucking built this shit up, you know? It was so interesting how he would respond to each of them whenever they asked the mentor if they should add this or if they should focus on this instead or if they should specialize in this or whatever it may be.

What he would say every single time is like, "You already have something that's fucking working. Like, you already have something that's low-hanging fruit that people want to buy. It's like, why are you trying to distract yourself? Like, you, like, you just need to be keep on, keep on doing the things that are working over and over and over again.

And so that way you can make this beautiful and work. Like, you only have a certain amount of energy and a certain amount of time gifted to you every single day, and what will happen is, like, if you get distracted by this one thing, you're already, you're already gonna pull yourself away from the thing that's already working and that could potentially, like, grow to something massive and huge for you, right?" And so the way that I brought it back to the retreat, and the reason why I'm bringing it up was because one of the, my students, so I was saying the same thing to my students, and one of my students there was like, "Well, isn't that, like, what entrepreneurship is all about? Like, isn't it about, like, having a dream and always looking for new ways to grow and, like, always, like, looking for how we can, like, you know, grow our passion within what we're doing and blah, blah, blah?"

And I was like, "Honestly, like, that is what every motivational speaker will tell you." Like, every time you, like, watch a motivational speaker, they're gonna tell you, like, follow your dream. Like, go fucking kick some ass. Like, do whatever.

Like, even if everybody says you're crazy, like, go do it anyway. But after going to that business conference, I'm like, a motivational speaker will tell you all that, to, like, follow your dreams, but then, like, somebody who's, like, a real deal fucking big ass business owner will tell you to just stay focused and do the same bor- boring things over and over and over again, right? Yeah. Until it works.

So- Yeah. it's like I'm not bagging on anybody for following their dreams. Totally. You know?

Like, I've been following my fucking dream since I was 16 and I just, n- ye- yeah, 15, and I decided to fucking get into my cosmetology program. And, like, I decided to become an educator when I was, like, 19, and I decided to fucking open up this business. Like, those have been my dreams up until this point, right? So I'm not saying, like, at all that you shouldn't follow them or if, like, something is super passionate, if you're passionate about it and you truly have, like, an in- intuitive, momentous feeling that this is where you're supposed to be, absolutely follow it.

But if you're going to ask me for strategic advice, like safe, strategic advice, in which I will tell you logically, on paper- That you can fall asleep at night, because you know you're giving them advice that will s- give results. Exactly. Like, so if you want results, like if you want numbers, right, like if you want actual things to happen for you, then that is what I'm here for, to tell you. But like I said earlier, if you say to me, "My dream is to create this fucking crazy thing," and I'm like, "Oh my God, that is a terrible idea," and you ignore me, but then you still wanna hear me out and you still want to allow me to be a part of that journey in making that dream happen, I am so down to help you make that happen.

Like, I am so down to help you figure out, "Okay, if this is really where we wanna go, how can we marry the tangible and the numbers and the data and all of that stuff, and the boring, repetitive stuff? How can we marry those proven business concepts to your dream to make your dream work?" You know? Hell yeah.

Mm-hmm. So, I really appreciate your perspective. Same. And y- and yeah, same.

I was gonna add another point, but I feel like we're, we're getting pretty long on time, so maybe I won't- Yeah. do that. Same. I agree.

I hope everybody understands where I'm coming from with the woo, and I hope that you guys- I was gonna say, how do you feel after that? I think people understand where I come from. Yeah. I think if people have listened to me long enough, if they, uh, if they know me, an- and especially if you're a student of mine, then you know where I'm coming from, and you know, you know that truly at the end of the day, I truly just care about people and I want peop- people to have the best.

And I want people's businesses to be something that is, uh, truly like, fueling their personal life and giving them, like, the wellness and the happiness that they, that is possible for them. You know? And so for me, if you want, like, no bullshit, like business advice, right, and also, of course, like, a kick in the ass and a pep talk and motivation every now and then- Totally. And of course, like philosophy, like I absolutely include that in my own business and also in my coaching as well.

Then I'm your guy. But I'm not gonna tell you to charge some crystals and do a vision board and, you know, like that's just not my tea. But- No, that's okay. No disrespect to anybody who does that, because if that's gonna work for you, if that's gonna make you successful, then fuckin' by all means, go the h- go ahead and do it.

And I think that it's so beautiful that I s- have you, somebody who can remind me that there are people out there who are incorporating those types of core values and practices into business coaching in a really ethical and beautiful way, and people- For sure. are actually getting results doing it. You know? Like, I, I'm very appreciative that I get to see that, a- as something that's actually happening every day, particularly from like some, somebody who I respect such as you.

And different strokes for different folks, and it just kinda finding what works for you and that literally goes with everything in life. Right. And so, and I even said this to Hunter when he first brought it up, I also think that people who are really in a hard place and really struggling can be drawn to woo so easily 'cause they're just grasping for anything. Right.

And so it, again, going back to like, I can only lay my head down at night knowing that I'm not just blindly telling people to g- go this direction when the stats... Do big, crazy, out there ideas exist without somebody having a really crazy, out there idea to start it with. Right. They, they wouldn't exist if it weren't for that.

Yes. Statistically, how many of those become something? The statistics are alarmingly low. Right.

So you just have to be aware of that, and, and be mindful of that as you're cheering people on and guiding them through their lives and business. And I, I love that we can relate in that too, 'cause it's a lot of pressure. It really is a lot of pressure, and it's really... I, I think people are gonna enjoy this kind of like flip-flop, back and forth duality of this, and I am sure everyone can find a middle ground in that somewhere.

Totally. Yeah. 100%. And again, I think I've already made it clear, but I just need to say it one more time.

Like girl, I support you whatever the fuck you wanna believe. How, whatever's gonna make you happy and whatever dream you have, like I'm just here to root you on along the way. You know? Like, so pop the fuck off.

Like I have- Hell yeah. full respect for you, full respect for whatever practices that you have in place. As long as you are not hurting other people, then I am cool. You know?

Like as long as you aren't harming other people, like I do not give a fuck about what you do. Right. And I will root you on for it, as long as it's positive, so. Lisa, I appreciate you so much.

I appreciate you, friend. Peace out. I know, I'm like, do I wrap this up? Do you wrap this up?

I know, this was great. Bye, audiences everywhere. Bye, y'all.

End of transcript. © 2024 Hunter Donia LLC.